To EVO or not to EVO... for a puppy.

wshive

First off, can anyone out there point me to actual studies that have been done with respect to ideal protein, fat, and calcium requirements for puppies (and adults). I've been looking for hard numbers but not had any luck. Have such studies even been done? I know AAFCO has "guidelines," but I don't think these are considered optimal are they?

I've been considering putting my weim pup "Crash" (3 1/2 months) on either EVO or Artemis Maximal dog, which are both high protein, grain-free foods. From what I've been reading, it seems restricting calorie intake is a more crucial factor than anything else. Here's an example that I found:

http://www.longliveyourdog.com/twoplus/Default.aspx

Also, I found an interesting article on wolf pups and what their dietary habits are, which seems mostly protein/organ driven beyond weaning.

http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=38

I've read a lot of posts saying that puppies shouldn't go on EVO or any other high-protein foods, but the only reason I've read is because it would make them grow too fast. My understanding of the way protein is used is that it's required for growth, but without excess calories beyond maintenance it does not promote growth. Instead it's used up as energy. (Think Atkins diet--you still get your calories, but they're from protein and fat instead of carbs. Only a portion of the protein is used for muscle building/maintenance, not all)

Assuming I keep calorie intake in check such that Crash is lean but not skinny, can anyone point me to research or give me a compelling argument why it's not a good idea to go so high protein for a puppy?

Also, aside from the grain-free factor, part of the reason I like EVO and Artemis Maximal is b/c their ingredient lists include a lot of fruits, veggies, and other nutrient-rich items, which I'd much rather have him eating than grains, even if they are "good" grains.

Christina · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

I was actually talking to a lady at a dog event last weekend about Evo and she said that it is not recommended for large breed dogs. Now I have not researched this at all, just what she told me. I was kind of confused because one of the fosters I took in was actually on Evo to help her gain weight.

BluesandBoots · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject:

Hi,

I'm having a similar debate about Orijen which is similar to Evo. I'm a vet student and looked on quite a few databases for recent veterinary journals on the issue.

Here's one article that talks about it:

Nap, RC Effects of dietary protein content on development of bones in large breed dogs. [Journal article] Praktische Tierarzt. Schlutersche GmbH & Co. KG, Verlag und Druckerei, Hannover, Germany: 2002. 83: 9, 766-769. 13 ref

High dietary protein levels have been implicated, without any clear substantiation, in disturbances in the skeletal development of large and giant breed dogs. Concerns exist amongst both veterinarians and breeders that protein, in high amounts, will interfere with the normal process of cartilage maturation leading to detrimental changes in parameters such as bone length. In order to assess different levels of dietary protein a study was conducted utilizing iso-caloric diets differing in protein levels. Diets with a protein dry matter of 31.6%, 23.1%, and 14.6% were fed to Great Danes from 6 weeks of age until 26 weeks. Clinical examination, radiographs, calcium metabolism (45Ca) and blood parameters (parathyroid hormone, calcitonin, growth hormone, and insulin-like growth factor) were measured. No differences were seen between the three different groups of dogs for skeletal development or calcium metabolism. No changes were detected to the final body weight, shoulder or physeal height, or cartilage maturation. It is concluded that the different protein intakes per se had no detrimental effect on calcium metabolism or skeletal development. High protein levels (31.6% dry matter) did not result in differences in shoulder height and body weight and it is unlikely that high protein has any detrimental role to play in cartilage and skeletal development.

peppernaei · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject:

I have a few articles and I'll look at them tomorrow and get back to you however I think they are mainly for canine athletes.

harpbonefran · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject:

Here are a couple of websites that I found helpful:

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#commercial

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

anne · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:25 am Post subject:

Nutrient Requirements of Dogs, Revised 1985 http://www.nap.edu/books/0309034965/html/

peppernaei · Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:

I PMed you a few references however I'll add it doesn’t hurt to get opinions from people that know your breed and lines. What did your breeder and/or vet suggest? You can always contact a nutritionist or the food company (since they have the data on their diets) and ask them what diet they suggest.

wshive · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:52 am Post subject:

Thanks all for the info thus far. I'm sure I wouldn't have found most of this stuff on my own. Very Happy

Will get to it soon and post my .02 on it all FWIW.

peppernaei · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:32 am Post subject:

anne · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject:

BluesandBoots · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject:

Hmmm I don't think you should being using something that was published so long ago. A lot and I mean a LOT of nutritional facts and figured have changed since then.

wshive · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject:

peppernaei · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject:

BluesandBoots · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject:

I am a vet student (but just at the beginning of my course so that doesn't mean much) but anyway we are not allowed to use references older then 10yrs when writing papers.

Just because some research is old doesn't mean it's not useful but really to do with nutrition you should look at something form 2000 onwards I think. The newest of research is great but it hasn't been proven yet so it's not always that good to rely solely on it either. It's hard to trust anything isn't it!

wshive · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: