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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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For anyone interested, here's a pamphlet based on the 2006 edition of Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. It has daily recommended allowance data, which I'm assuming is from the main research book.
http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf |
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Banshee13
Champion Weim
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 622
Location: Berywn Heights, MD
Fur Kids: Banshee-female weim, 14 months
Ranger-neutered black lab mix, 11 months
Scout-male mountain view cur, 7 months
Kali-spayed female rottie/dobie mix, 12 yrs.
PLUS: 4 cats and a ferret! Any questions??!! |
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| How very helpful. Thank you so much, wshive! |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| wshive wrote: | | anne wrote: | Yeah that 's why I refer to the old one.  |
Oh, gotcha. Ya I do wonder if that info is outdated or no? Just 'cause it's old doesn't mean it's not valid, but it could be... |
I work in a university research environment (USC), I'm not in research but work with researchers, and one thing I do know is that you are right, just becuase it's old doesn't mean it's not valid, but on the other hand, old research is often debunked by new research.
I think the other flaw in the studies - and they mention this - is the whole bioavailability issue. Just because a label says there X amout of protein in a food, that doesn't mean that all the nutrients are avaiable to the dog after processing, or maybe the dog doesn't absorb well etc.
I think research and citing peer reviewed journals is important and should be given the credit due, but I also think that there is an element of "common sense" based on general knowledge when it comes to feeding, but that is JMO.
BTW, where in LA do you live? |
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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Anne, I'm with you on the bioavailability thing. I've found it's almost never available on pet food labels, so you have to understand which ingredients are quality ones and be able to trust the manufacturer.
| anne wrote: | | BTW, where in LA do you live? |
Funny you should mention USC; I went there for grad school. I'm in West LA now as a poor starving writer. No doubt my dog food research is a way to procrastinate!  |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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WLA, no wonder you are starving, j/k!
We should do a doggy play date, I just moved to Torrance. I placed a pup with a good friend who lives in Venice so we try and get together now and then. |
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jmwgomz
Housebroken
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 78
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| So has anyone been feeding EVO to their puppy? If so, what results have you seen? |
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BluesandBoots
Housebroken
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Australia
Fur Kids: Baker - dog
Weimaraner short hair
Show name: Ykarumba Blues and Boots
Eli - dog
Weimaraner long hair
Show name: Silverodhar Escapade |
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah that's what I want to know. Who has been feeding a high quality high protein diet to their puppy? Older research or ideas suggest that a diet to high in protein for a large breed puppy can make them down at the pasterns or cause feet to venture 'east/west'.
Newer research suggests that high protein doesn't do this and a good quality protein source that isn't over fed to your puppy shouldn't have this effect. |
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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| anne wrote: | WLA, no wonder you are starving, j/k!
We should do a doggy play date, I just moved to Torrance. I placed a pup with a good friend who lives in Venice so we try and get together now and then. |
Torrance is great. Feels like home to me cause my parents live in P.V. Actually, lately I've been going over there more to try to get Crash in their pool. He's not liking it much. 
I'm def down to meet up when you come up to Venice. Crash would do well to hang around some well balanced doggies (read: owners!). Shoot me an e-mail when you come up to visit your friend. I'll send you one in case the others got buried. |
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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BluesandBoots wrote: | Yeah that's what I want to know. Who has been feeding a high quality high protein diet to their puppy? Older research or ideas suggest that a diet to high in protein for a large breed puppy can make them down at the pasterns or cause feet to venture 'east/west'.
Newer research suggests that high protein doesn't do this and a good quality protein source that isn't over fed to your puppy shouldn't have this effect. |
I'll summarize the research I've found. peppernaei forwarded me excerpts for Studies 1-3. Studies 1-4 used Great Danes.
Study 1 - Schoenmakers, I et al.: One group was fed just high calcium (Ca), the other high Ca and phosphorus (Ph) from beginning of weaning to 17 weeks. After 17 weeks, they were fed "normal" levels of Ca & Ph for 10 weeks. Both groups developed skeletal problems, which lessened but did not go away after 10 weeks on the normal diets.
Study 2 - Lauten, SD et al.: Puppies were fed varying levels of Ca & Ph but all at a ratio of 1.2 Ca/Ph. Ca 2.67% on the high end and Ca 0.47% on the low. Though there were skeletal differences at 6 months, by 12 months any noticeable growth differences had resolved themselves suggesting some sort of "regulatory" system in the puppies. The study was done until the pups were 18 months. The researchers suggested that an "optimal" ratio of 1.2 may partly be the reason for the lack of skeletal differences/problems they had expected.
Study 3 - Dammrich, D: Dogs were allowed to free feed (ad libitum feeding) or were given controlled amounts of food. The ad libitum dogs underwent accelerated skeletal growth but at the expense of lower bone density. Additionally, increased weight resulting from overfeeding predisposed dogs to osteochondrosis (lack of blood supply to bones).
Study 4 - Carey, D et al: A study done by the Iams company used the same Ca/Ph levels and ratio (approx 1.2) as Study 2. Ca/Ph % of 2.7/2.2, 0.8/0.67, and 0.48/0.4 were used on puppies from pre-weaning to 18 months. Ca/Ph % of 0.8/0.67 were found to be optimal both in terms of healthy bone growth and lower incidence of skeletal diseases.
Study 4a - The same paper also refers to a non-Iams study feeding puppies varying amounts of protein (31.6, 23.1, and 14.6%) from weaning to 18 weeks and seeing no correlation in skeletal development problems. Of note though was the fact that the 14.6% puppies had trouble keeping sufficient weight.
Study 5 - Kealy, R et al (aka Purina Life Span Study): One group of Labrador Retrievers were fed ad libitum until 3 years of age then "fed an amount estimated to be the caloric requirement for large breed dogs in 'normal' body condition." The other group was fed 25% of the first group. The leaner group lived a median age of 1.8 years longer and required treatment for certain health conditions 2.1 years later. There was also a 2 year delay in the loss of lean muscle mass in the lean group and signs of aging (graying muzzles, etc.) were fewer. The study was done with 48 labs, 24 in each group.
Study 6 - Not really a study, but from the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats pamphlet I posted above. A 33lb. adult dog requiring 1000 calories/day has a daily recommended allowance of 0.75g Ca and 0.75g Ph.
The Dog Food Spreadsheet
Partly because of Study 6, I compiled a huge spreadsheet of the following brands:
Artemis, AvoDerm, Before Grain, Blue Buffalo, California Natural, Chicken Soup, Drs. FosterSmith, Eagle Pack, EVO, Flint River Ranch, Innova, Kirkland Signature, Lotus, Merrick, Natural Balance, Nature's Variety - Prairie, Pinnacle, Solid Gold, Taste Of The Wild, Ultramix, and Wellness.
I got all the Ca & Ph % as well as the Cal/kg info for the foods and used it to calculate the grams of Ca and Ph in 1000 calories. I was surprised to find extremely high absolute levels of both Ca and Ph. Ca ranged from 2.5g to 7.4g  for 1000 calories when the recommended amount in Study 6 is 0.75g. I'm assuming this has to do with bioavailability, which Anne mentioned. So 7.4g isn't actually what they would get but some percentage of it would be more accurate. Whatever that is, I still think it's extremely high. Personally a 2.5-3.5g range seems more appropriate.
Ca/Ph ratios varied from 1.7 to 1.1. Virtually all the grainless foods had ratios greater than 1.5. I'm guessing all the meat meal makes it difficult to keep that in check because of all the ground bone in the meal?
As far as actual grainless formulas, Blue Buffalo Blue Wilderness was the only food with appropriate Ca & Ph % (according to Study 4). All the others, including EVO, had Ca of 1.6% or higher. I don't yet have numbers on Before Grain. Keep in mind though that, according to Study 2, the ratio may be more important than absolute amounts because of a suspected ability for pups/dogs to self-regulate. Still, I wouldn't take any chances.
Conclusion
I'm by far no expert (I got a 5 on my Bio AP test way back when, does that count? ), but personally, I'm going to follow a few guidelines:
1. Definitely do not overfeed. Better to be skinny than even slightly overweight. (Sounds pretty un PC. It's a good thing we're talking about dogs )
2. Keep Ca/Ph ratio as close to 1.2 as possible. Avoid formulas with high percentage/absolute amounts. (BTW Ca % across all foods ranged from 0.9% to 1.8% even though Study 4 suggested 0.8% as optimal. Again, higher because of bioavailability issue maybe?)
3. According to the spreadsheet I compiled, Large Breed Puppy and Large Breed Adult formulas have a relatively broad range of ratios and % of Ca & Ph. Ratios range from 1.1 to 1.5 and Ca % from 0.9 to 1.5. Also, there are plenty of adult formulas with lower levels of Ca & Ph than Large Breed formulas. In other words, look at the label for yourself or call the manufacturer. Don't just go by what the food is supposedly formulated for.
Apologies for the length, but I assume if you're here, you're interested. I can provide links to the research and/or post parts of my spreadsheet if anyone's interested. |
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BluesandBoots
Housebroken
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Australia
Fur Kids: Baker - dog
Weimaraner short hair
Show name: Ykarumba Blues and Boots
Eli - dog
Weimaraner long hair
Show name: Silverodhar Escapade |
| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for that and yes I'm very interested. At the moment I have my 13 week old puppy on 3 cups of Eagle Pack a day spread over 3 meals a day + 2 tablespoons of mince with his evening meal. He is a big puppy but his ribs and back bone are easy to feel so he's definitely not overweight (unlike his owner). I'm going to change him over to Orijen when I can get hold of it. Here is it's analysis. What do you think?
Guaranteed Analysis
Protein (min.) 42.0%
Fat 16.0%
Carbohydrate 18.0%
Moisture 10.0%
Fiber 2.0%
Calcium (min.) 1.4%
Calcium (max.) 1.6%
Phosphorus (min.) 1.1%
Phosphorus (max.) 1.3%
Omega-6 2.5%
Omega-3 1.0%
Glucosamine 500 mg/kg
Chondroitin 150 mg/kg
Microorganisms 80M cfu/kg
pH 5.0
Ash (min.) 6.5%
Botanical Analysis
Chicory root 600 mg/kg
Licorice root 500 mg/kg
Fenugreek 350 mg/kg
Marigold flowers 350 mg/kg
Sweet fennel 350 mg/kg
Peppermint leaf 250 mg/kg
Chamomile flowers 250 mg/kg
Dandelion 150 mg/kg
Summer savory 150 mg/kg
Rosehips 150 mg/kg
Vitamins
Vitamin A 34 kIU/kg
Vitamin D3 2.0 kIU/kg
Vitamin E 400 IU/kg
Vitamin K 2.5 IU/kg
Vitamin B12 465 IU/kg
Thiamine 65 mg/kg
Riboflavin 56 mg/kg
Niacin 250 mg/kg
Pan. acid 44 mg/kg
Pyridoxine 32 mg/kg
Biotin 0.6 mg/kg
Folic acid 3.4 mg/kg
Choline 3600 mg/kg
Ascorbic acid 70 mg/kg
Beta carotene 0.65 mg/kg
AMINO ACIDS
Taurine 0.22 mg/kg
T. Lysine 2.0%
T. Threonine 1.7%
T. Methionine 1.0%
T. Isoleucine 1.9%
T. Leucine 2.0%
T. Valine 2.0%
T. Arginine 3.2%
T. Phen. 1.7%
T. Histidine 1.2%
T. Cystine 0.6%
MINERALS
Sodium 0.25%
Chloride 0.5%
Potassium 0.6%
Magnesium 0.09%
Sulphur 0.4%
Iron 270 mg/kg
Zinc 225 mg/kg
Copper 25 mg/kg
Manganese 24 mg/kg
Cobalt 0.6 mg/kg
Iodine 4.0 mg/kg
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg
My older dog is on adult orijen and he is doing the best he's ever done on a biscuit ever. |
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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is Orijen Puppy Large? I didn't put Orijen in my spreadsheet only b/c I knew it was expensive and price is a factor for me. But this is how I would look at it if I were to consider it:
It's def a solid food looking at the ingredient list. All the top ingredients are specific proteins or fats with only potatoes as a potential filler. Extra points for having lots of fruits/veggies in the top 20 ingredients. And a moderate amount of glucosamine/chondroiton is a bonus. Two probiotics, but it's hard to know in what amounts because they're broken out from the main ingredient list. I would feel more comfortable seeing them listed in the middle of the ingredient list.
My take on the protein/fat/carb % at this point is that I frankly don't know, and I'll just trust in Study 4a, which says it doesn't make a diff in skeletal growth and that the 14.6% protein puppies had trouble keeping weight. I don't think there's anything wrong with a high protein diet (all else being equal), but this is my personal view and not based on any specific research.
As for Ca/Ph ratio, it's pretty much right on. The concentrations are on the low end of the grainless foods I've looked into, which is good if you're set on feeding grainless. However, they arel high compared to what Study 4 suggests as optimal (Ca/Ph of 0.8/0.67). I would call or e-mail Orijen and ask them for Cal/kg info (unless I missed it on the website?). That's the only way you'll know how much Ca & Ph your pup will actually be getting given the calories you're going to feed. If you get that info, I'll do the quick math and let you know how it compares to the other foods I've looked at.
I haven't done this b/c it would take too much time, but if you've got it narrowed down to this food or just a few, you could use the daily recommended allowances figures from that pamphlet I posted above and see how the food compares on that basis as well. You'd still need the Cal/kg figure first.
Again, I'm not a vet, nutritionist, or any sort of expert. This is just research and number crunching I've done on my own to find the right food for my pup. |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| wshive wrote: | | - Lauten, SD et al |
This is Susan Lauten, she is a Weim person. She does nutritional consulting. |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| wshive wrote: | Torrance is great. Feels like home to me cause my parents live in P.V. Actually, lately I've been going over there more to try to get Crash in their pool. He's not liking it much.
I'm def down to meet up when you come up to Venice. Crash would do well to hang around some well balanced doggies (read: owners!). Shoot me an e-mail when you come up to visit your friend. I'll send you one in case the others got buried. |
PM sent |
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jmwgomz
Housebroken
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 78
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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wshive,
I would be very interested in taking a look at your spreadsheet. I am still debating what food to get Zeke on as it doesn't seem that Canidae is agreeing with him. |
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wshive
Puppy
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Fur Kids: Crash, Weimaraner |
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| jmwgomz wrote: | wshive,
I would be very interested in taking a look at your spreadsheet. I am still debating what food to get Zeke on as it doesn't seem that Canidae is agreeing with him. |
Happy to send it. PM me your e-mail. Word of warning though: it's hard to specifically explain how it works unless you understand excel functions. Also, cost plays into the calculations (calories/$), so it affects the final score. |
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