Behaviour issue - help please!

nickyj · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: Behaviour issue - help please!

My two year old Weim and eight month old Lab pup have been the best of friends since the Lab came to us at 12 weeks old. Sure, they'd romp and romp quite hard (as the lab didn't seem to recognise the fact she's half the size of Shadow) but always in a friendly manner. Both are girls.
Last week, Shadow's brother came to us. Shadow was a rescue and Dusty's owner's no longer wanted him. He's staying with us until this coming Sunday when he is going to his new permanent home. Since his arrival, all three have got on well. There have been no behaviour issues - until this afternoon.
My husband was grooming the Lab pup this afternoon when Shadow attacked her. She pinned her down with her neck in her mouth. To be honest, it scared Coco the Lab rather than causing any physical damage, no blood drawn etc. Some two hours later, after everything had settled down and all three were sleeping, Shadow got up and approached Coco, who woke aware that someone was watching her. Again, Shadow pounced, pinning her down, Coco crying etc. We scolded Shadow, held her down, made her submissive to us on both occasions. This has happened twice more. As I type the Lab is inside the house with us, Shadow outside with her brother. During all the drama the male Weim did not get involved at all. Coco is apparently now terrified of Shadow, her "best friend".
None of them are fixed. We thought it might be a hormone thing. Coco is eight months old but not showing any signs of heat and Shadow was on heat in June. Shadow has never shown any aggression to Coco, nor has she to her brother since he's been here.
Any suggestions as to why this might have happened and how it might be resolved would be really welcome. I'm praying that when Dusty goes the status quo may be resumed... but at this point I'm really not sure.
Sorry this is so long winded but I'm trying to give the fullest picture possible.

DukesMom · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject:

I'm guessing that Shadow really really likes her brother and doesn't want to share him? I think things will get back to normal once he's gone.

Aces-Wild · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject:

Perhaps the pack order has been changed since the addition of the 3rd dog and Shadow is trying to secure her place?

nickyj · Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject:

That's what we're hoping, that Shadow is asserting herself as top female dog. As I said before we're really hoping the status quo returns once Dusty's gone. Though we'll very much miss him.

Wrench · Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject:

Just remember that Shadow shouldn't be allowed to be the top alpha dog...that is your role, being Alpha...not hers.

versatilek9s · Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject:

I'm guessing your girl is experiencing her first false pregnancy. I also have a house with three intact females and you really have to watch them. They experience something of a false pregnancy every time, and though it's mild, they really get crabby for those few days about two months after their season. If one was in heat in June, then now's the right time for this behavior. They want to get in their beds and be left alone.

You may not have seen any reason for the aggression, but sometimes all it takes is a look or one of them walking too close to the other when she's trying to sleep. You DO need to correct the dog for this, but keep in mind that it's not necessarily the beginnings of WW3!

They can all coexist, but they do need to work out their differences and as long as they don't draw blood and act appropriately I wouldn't worry. (Note: appropriately is different in every situation, it's up to you to decide.)

8 months is also a good time for the puppy to start challenging the older dog's authority as those hormones start to kick in.

nickyj · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject:

Blood was drawn this morning, shortly after Walter had left.
We let Shadow off the lead and she immediately went to Coco and stood over her. Coco went completely submissive and there was a standoff for several minutes. Then she ripped into her, picking her up by her neck and shaking her like a rag doll. My husband tried to separate them but in the end the only thing which worked was putting the hose on all three of them. Coco has a small puncture wound to her neck.
We've now muzzled Shadow. And she's now realised that she can't hurt her. It's like a red mist descends - no amount of calling, key jangling or any of the usual noises which would get her attention will break her focus on Coco. We've jukked her in her neck, made her lie flat on the ground, my husband has pounded her behind. I really don't know what to do. My husband is going away tomorrow night and I'm a little worried about dealing with this on my own.

aly · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

I would be quite concerned that this seems to be escalating, do you still have the 3rd dog around that you are fostering? It may be an idea if you have to try to get him somewhere else as your dogs were fine before he came.
Is your female spayed? If not maybe you need to get her done?

I agree with the other posts that you cannot allow her to be alpha, that is your job but I not sure this is the main root of the problem as she has attacked your lab when it was being completely submissive. Is there any way you can get in touch with a behaviourist before it becomes any worse?

If she were my dog I would keep her muzzled at all times round my other dogs until I found out what was causing the problem/solved it.

Good luck while your husband is away, hope everything goes well.
xxx

nickyj · Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

Thanks Aly. I'm hoping we can resolve this. Behaviourists are non existent in Jamaica. The third dog did leave this morning. I'm guessing it's going to take a few days for Shadow and Coco to realise that he's not coming back.

JacksMommy · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject:

Im going to agree that it almost sounds territorial.

I would keep the muzzle on until I knew the root cause of the problem and had a solution in hand, as this sounds all to familiar, and while it pains me to admit it, Jack has killed one of our other dogs.

Things escalated rapidly and she was unable to defend herself against him. There was a HUGE power struggle between the two and a bit of jealousy as well.

I would even recommend some one on one time with Shadow so that she sees she is no ones shadow and that she is loved just as much as everyone else.

nickyj · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the tips. Please keep them coming.
Today has been better. I took Shadow for a long long walk this morning and she was very good. She is completely submissive to me, even moreso when the muzzle is on. Getting the little one to keep within a mile of her hasn't been easy but as I type Shadow is curled up asleep by my feet while Coco is about 10 feet away out equally cold. I'm not sure I would trust her even with the muzzle on her own with Coco as I want Coco to realise that Shadow can't actually hurt her while the muzzle is on and to get a little confidence back. I realise it's going to take time and patience but now it's the three of us here hopefully I can get them into a routine and take it from there.
Again, thanks for the advice..

nickyj · Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject:

Ok how bad to I feel now?
We've had a really good day today, again I've kept Shadow muzzled while in Coco's company but Coco is not bolting to the nearest hiding space and they've tolerated each other both inside and out today. I've kept my distance more and observed rather than shadowing Shadow.
Anyway I just took Shadow for a ride in the car, leaving Coco here - they've been getting alternate car rides since this all started. We came back and Shadow was fine with her as we got out of the car. I unloaded and they were following me around. Next thing I hear a moan and turn round and reprimand Shadow... only to realise seconds later it was in fact Coco wanting to play with her big sister who hasn't played with her in days.
I feel so rotten now. She looked at me as if to say but mum, it wasn't me. Extra sofa hugs to follow.

aly · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:11 am Post subject:

So glad everything is settling down, you seem to be doing a great job. I would also leave Shadow muzzled then step back and observe her behaviour with Coco when you are not there. At least Coco still loves her big sister even though she's been grumpy with her!

nickyj · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:49 am Post subject:

That's my plan. My husband was supposed to come back last night but work delayed him til tonight or tomorrow. I'd intended to keep Shads muzzled around Coco until his return at the earliest. This morning's been good too. Coco's confidence is back and she's not constantly looking over her shoulder. Shadow's forgiven me for telling her off last night and has stopped the staring which preceded aggression towards Coco previously. It's going to be a long process, I realise. Coco may have forgiven/forgotten Shadow but it's going to be some time before I trust Shadow with Coco on her own again.

nickyj · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject:

An update which I hope will close this thread but peace seems to have resumed with us.
When I found Coco helping Shadow to try and take off her muzzle I a few days back I figured the little one's confidence was back and that Shadow was seeing the light.
I'd de-muzzled Shads a couple of times and had her on the lead and was showing no aggression to Coco.
So I took it off, brought her in on the lead and after they'd interacted as of old just dropped the lead.
It's gone from strength to strength ever since. In fact if anyone is showing more manners now it's Shadow.
I can't tell you how relieved I am. And how happy Coco is to have her playmate back, rather than an angry long legged, lanky dog, hellbent on eating her!
Thanks again for your advice.