|
|
| Author |
Message |
simis
Champion Weim
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 895
Fur Kids: Rosie - weim
Louise & Kodiak - Siamese kitties |
 Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Not a pointer? |
 |
|
Alright. Rosie is coming up on a year and a half and still doesn't understand the point concept. We did our first huntest this past spring and have one coming this fall and while we should be out training more, she has gotten a decent amount of bird exposure (quail & chucker). What if anything can we do to encourage her pointing? She has the prey drive once she gets into the groove and realizes what we are doing in the field. Also in full disclosure, I am new to the trials and hunt regime but find it fascinating to see them do what they were meant to do and want to encourage her on birds as much as possible.
Here she is with her latest catch:
Today she actually flushed a pheasant out (not planted, total shocker!) on our walk - people frequently use the fields for training so I'm sure someone had planted it yesterday and forgotten about it or she flew away  her lucky day!
Thanks for any advice you can share with us! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I too am a total newbie to this game!
Luna is almost 15 months old and she *just* started pointing birds in the past few weeks! Once we were able to kick her prey drive in to gear, we had to figure out how to stop her from catching birds period. I think what has helped us was switching from pen raised quail to plain old pigeons. They are bigger and more exciting, and they fly a heck of alot stronger. Bird launchers, I believe, have not hurt either.
I am certain after a season of hunting wild pheasant under her belt, she will be a totally different dog...
Just my experience... this summer of training has been quite the ride.
Great picture of Rosie!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
versatilek9s
Champion Weim
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 740
Location: VA
Fur Kids: Maya, Sage & Macy--all weims |
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, weims can take quite awhile to realize they are pointers!
Too much bird exposure, which leads to too much bird catching are problems for young dogs.
Questions: did she ever point? does she get "birdy" when she's on a bird, or just jump in and pounce?
You can fix any of these problems, but it does take some work.
Launching some birds from a bird launcher--either manual or the more expensive automatic version--will staunch her right up. AS SOON as she starts making game launch the bird. More than one launcher can be helpful with this. Dogs learn very quickly that they better stand there.
Some people also take the dog off birds at this point and go ahead and get them steady to wing and shot, in the hopes that this will help the dog. If it were me, I'd go with the launcher.
Also consider using pigeons, since they flush faster and higher than quail or other birds. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
simis
Champion Weim
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 895
Fur Kids: Rosie - weim
Louise & Kodiak - Siamese kitties |
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LunaBrown wrote: | I too am a total newbie to this game!
Luna is almost 15 months old and she *just* started pointing birds in the past few weeks! Once we were able to kick her prey drive in to gear, we had to figure out how to stop her from catching birds period. I think what has helped us was switching from pen raised quail to plain old pigeons. They are bigger and more exciting, and they fly a heck of alot stronger. Bird launchers, I believe, have not hurt either.
I am certain after a season of hunting wild pheasant under her belt, she will be a totally different dog...
Just my experience... this summer of training has been quite the ride.
Great picture of Rosie! |
Glad I'm not the only one! I followed your post about her pointing, that is *exactly* the feeling I want with Rosie! You have good reason to be a proud birdyweimamama! 
| versatilek9s wrote: | Yes, weims can take quite awhile to realize they are pointers!
Too much bird exposure, which leads to too much bird catching are problems for young dogs.
Questions: did she ever point? does she get "birdy" when she's on a bird, or just jump in and pounce?
You can fix any of these problems, but it does take some work.
Launching some birds from a bird launcher--either manual or the more expensive automatic version--will staunch her right up. AS SOON as she starts making game launch the bird. More than one launcher can be helpful with this. Dogs learn very quickly that they better stand there.
Some people also take the dog off birds at this point and go ahead and get them steady to wing and shot, in the hopes that this will help the dog. If it were me, I'd go with the launcher.
Also consider using pigeons, since they flush faster and higher than quail or other birds. |
We've had a mixed bag of experiences on birds....alone and with other dogs. Sometimes with another dog Rosie would be all into it, then if the other dog got the bird she thought the game was over and would want to play with the other dog....then she'd realize wait, we are still quartering, there must be another bird, nose to ground, even a little backing now and again....she gets it (the big picture), but doesn't entirely realize she can't just grab a bird and run off with it.
I guess I get caught up in what a true "point" is also.....does it have to invole the front leg being picked up, staunch, tail straight out and motionless? Or can it just be all the aforementioned minus the leg up?
Here's another pic of her with a friend (picture difficulties uploading, sorry it's vertical)
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
h20fwlkillr
Adult Weim
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 492
Location: Holden, Mo.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Alright. Rosie is coming up on a year and a half and still doesn't understand the point concept |
Pointing isn't a concept for a dog. Dogs point for 1 of 2 reasons, (1)new things or things they are unsure of. (2) resorting to pointing because they have learned they can't catch the bird.
I assume since she isn't pointing, she is catching or has caught several birds. Do you train with a check cord? If not, there lies a lot of your problem. In training, the trainer has to have control over the situation to get the outcome he desires. If there is no control, it is setting up both the dog and trainer for failure.
Do the birds you use fly well? If not, get better flying birds or a launcher. You must make sure the dog can not catch the birds.
| Quote: | | I guess I get caught up in what a true "point" is also.....does it have to invole the front leg being picked up, staunch, tail straight out and motionless? Or can it just be all the aforementioned minus the leg up? |
A point is really just the dog stopping immediately on scent and holding that position it stopped in. Some dogs will take the same stance every time and be quite stylish. Others will stop in some very awkward positions and will be different every time. As long as a dog is stopping on scent and standing game, it is pointing. BTW, she is pointing in the picture.(and looks good!)
| Quote: | | Too much bird exposure, which leads to too much bird catching are problems for young dogs. |
I disagree. The only way that a dog can have too much exposure is if it is getting bored with the birds. Catching birds and too much bird exposure are 2 different problems and not related. Dogs catching birds is a trainer problem. The training situation was not kept in a controlled environment.
| Quote: | | Sometimes with another dog Rosie would be all into it, then if the other dog got the bird she thought the game was over and would want to play with the other dog. |
I would avoid running with another dog until she is broke. Competition can also lead to busting in on birds. They can also pick up bad habits from other dogs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
versatilek9s
Champion Weim
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 740
Location: VA
Fur Kids: Maya, Sage & Macy--all weims |
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Let me clarify by saying that a dog cannot have too many wild bird opportunities, but for those of us who play the doggie games (HTs, FTs, etc) there can be way too much. Many dogs have been ruined by running JH too many times, and many dogs are in derby for way too long and can never be reeled back in and gotten steady. So yes, I think there can be too many planted, poorly flying birds (which is the kind most of us have to use!).
If I had them all on wild birds more than 3-4 times a year, I would say that no, there's never too many birds. You're lucky! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
simis
Champion Weim
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 895
Fur Kids: Rosie - weim
Louise & Kodiak - Siamese kitties |
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| h20fwlkillr wrote: |
Pointing isn't a concept for a dog. Dogs point for 1 of 2 reasons, (1)new things or things they are unsure of. (2) resorting to pointing because they have learned they can't catch the bird.
I assume since she isn't pointing, she is catching or has caught several birds. Do you train with a check cord? If not, there lies a lot of your problem. In training, the trainer has to have control over the situation to get the outcome he desires. If there is no control, it is setting up both the dog and trainer for failure. |
Ok, thank you that answers a lot, she hasn't learned that she can't catch it - "her" problem is really mine/my spouses problem in bad training! I thought that just getting her out on birds would be good at such a young age...and I guess I was under the impression that she would just start naturally pointing one day  it's not too late to correct it, right?
We do have a 12 ft check cord....should we go longer? We had not trained with it yet in the fields but will start now that it's been pointed out for better control.
Question: For those that like the bird launchers, do you make your own or do you buy them from a field & stream place/hunting store? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was fortunate enough to train with people who had remote controlled launchers... I do intend on picking up a pair, but I'm hoping to find them used because they're expensive!
A guy I worked with once had some manual cage-type releases (http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Bird-Launchers/LCS-Tip-Up-Bird-Releaser.html) that worked pretty well too, and the are way less expensive... but I must warn you to tie a bright ribbon on them - they completely disappear when you plant them in the grass!
I'm eager to see how things go with Rosie!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
versatilek9s
Champion Weim
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 740
Location: VA
Fur Kids: Maya, Sage & Macy--all weims |
| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lion country has good ones http://www.lcsupply.com either the automatic or manual are good. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
h20fwlkillr
Adult Weim
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 492
Location: Holden, Mo.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Ok, thank you that answers a lot, she hasn't learned that she can't catch it - "her" problem is really mine/my spouses problem in bad training! I thought that just getting her out on birds would be good at such a young age...and I guess I was under the impression that she would just start naturally pointing one day it's not too late to correct it, right?
|
Most dogs really don't have any problems that aren't created by their trainer. Lucky for us, dogs are resilient and can be retrained for the most part. If you don't make mistakes in training, you aren't training enough. Putting a pup on birds isn't bad, in fact it is very beneficial. How it is gone about is what can cause the problems. I believe it was Delmar Smith who said never set your dog up for failure. Make sure when you train, you have control of everything that can be controlled. She would just start pointing on her own, if she was only exposed to wild birds. They are the best trainers around. As for "fixing" her, launchers or wild birds will cure her in a short time. Wild birds won't tolerate a dog busting in, or getting real close for that matter. It won't take long for her to figure it out. If using launchers, if she gets close, pop the bird. She'll start to figure out she can't even get close. After she starts pointing, she'll try to creep in. She moves so much as an inch, pop the bird. She'll steady up before you know it. Also, never shoot a bird over a dog that didn't point/or busted in. It only reinforces the behavior.
| Quote: | We do have a 12 ft check cord....should we go longer? We had not trained with it yet in the fields but will start now that it's been pointed out for better control.
|
I prefer a 30 footer, but I think a 12 would work to start with. 12 would also be easier for you until used to working a dog off a CC.
| Quote: | | Question: For those that like the bird launchers, do you make your own or do you buy them from a field & stream place/hunting store? |
LCSUPPLY.COM has an outstanding selection of launchers. They have one they market under their name ( but made by Innotek ) that is very good for the money. I believe it is around $200 for a launcher, receiver and remote. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
