colouring of the breed

barb · Puppy Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

We are new to the land of weimaraners and just love them! We have been told that a breeder has had a litter with one puppy that looks like a German shorthair. Is this possible? All the rest are silver and the parents are purbread registered silver/grey. Anyone ever heard of this?

GrayGhost · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject:

Welcome to the forum Barb.

Without getting too technical Barb, genetically all Weimaraners are brown/liver dogs with what is called a dilution gene*. Dilution genes wash out or dilute other colors. In the case of brown, the coloration is changed to the silver that we are familiar with. Now the intensity can vary from a crisp silver to what I call a very light taupe, like that of what you see in my Weim Dorian. And there can be varying intensities in a single litter.

However, the fact remains that all Weimaraners all carry the genes for "brown" and "dilution" and only these genes. Because of this, all offspring will be "brown" and "dilution".

Now to get a little more technical. The genes for brown and for the dilute are both recessive, so in the presence of another gene, the other trait shows up instead. It is not real typical for other breeds to carry a dilution gene (and if they do, it isn't in every single dog like in Weims). So if a weim crosses with another dog, that dilution gene is kind of canceled out (unless that dog happens to carry a dilution gene), and the color "brown" can be expressed fully. Unless that dog happens to pass on a gene that is dominant to brown, then that color will be expressed fully.

So for a Weimaraner to produce an actual liver/brown that is like that of a GSP, is genetically impossible.

That puppy would almost have to be the result of a cross. So that leaves a couple of possibilities. Either there is more than one father, or the dog that was bred to the bitch was a brown dog that carried a dilution gene.

If a brown dog with a dilution gene bred to a Weim, probability states that roughly 50% of the puppies would be silver and the other 50% would be brown/liver. So in this case, a mix of silvers and a mix of brown/livers could be produced.

In other words Barb, if one was a GSP color liver and not just a slightly more tan silver, then there either had to be multiple parrents or one of the parrents had to be a brown dog that carried a dilution gene.

*As a side note, I thought I would mention that black with the dilution gene being expressed results in what is called a blue. This is where the controversy over blue Weimaraners comes in. There is no possible way, short of some sort of freak mutation that only affected this single gene, for two silver dogs to ever produce a blue. This is because brown is recessive to black and brown is only expressed when it is homozygous.

RK · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject:

yeah, what he said. Wink

barb, there had to be a cross somewhere along the line for that to happen, no matter what anyone says.

barb · Puppy Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

Hello again-thanks for the reply. The litter is actually ours and we purchased the dogs as registered wei. from South Dakota. They are not brother and sister and are from different kennels. There were 5 pups in the litter and one came out as a silver/blue/white with a darker undercoat and what seems to be longer hair. He looks the same as the others, but almost has German shorthair markings. She wasn't bred with another dog as we own both dogs and they were monitored and 'surpervised' at all times. We live in the country with no neighbours and the dogs are always with us. This is what is making us wonder what has happened. The dilution theory makes sense-but why the different markings? Is this due to the parents genetics and possibly not being purebreed as we were lead to believe? Thank you for all your help and previous information. They are such great dogs, but we are just curious. Barb

emily · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject:

GrayGhost wow! Shocked

You're my new search engine Laughing

No more google for me, just ask grayghost!

emily · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject:

Barb,
Do you keep in touch with the breeders of your parents dogs? They should be able to tell you why you have a liver pup. You might be able to find out if this has happened to any of thier litters. As a side note, there's a weim/vizsla mix at the dog park that is liver colored. So perhaps a little vizsla in there? This dog looked more like a weim though. Hope you can figure everything out.

GrayGhost · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject:

RK · Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject:

i'm curious to see them as well!

grayghost—so can the two silver parents not produce a different pup if one of the parents along the line had a cross in their background?

also, is this a different genetically then producing a long hair pup? because two shorthairs can produce a longhair, right?

GrayGhost · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:03 am Post subject:

RK, with many dogs, you can’t really determine what their genotype (genetic coding) is by looking at them. This is because many dogs can carry recessive genes. A Weimaraner is a unique dog that the looks are a result of all homozygous recessive genes (except for a blue). So by looking at a Silver Weimaraner, you can actually know without a doubt what most of these genes are because they have to be the same for the Silver Weim to look like a Silver Weim.

B is the code for black.
b is the code for brown.
D is the code for “non-dilution” (also called self-coloring I believe)
d is the code for dilution

There are other genes that are responsible for color, but they are not really that important (white spotting, roaning, yellowing, etc). They will typically also be homozygous in Weims though too because they have solid coats and crossing various Weims does not result in anything other than solid coats.

A “Silver” Weim will always, without a doubt, be bbdd (homozygous for brown and homozygous for dilution). There are no exceptions. This code is for homozygous brown/liver and homozygous dilution. Because they are recessive, they must be the same to show up. That is why you can look at a Weim and know it is pure in regards to these two Loci. Unlike with black dogs that can be Bb or BB, since they are both black, you don’t know from just looking if the dog is homozygous black or if it is black that carries brown. Labradors carry B b E e and are all DD*. The E locus is a coat modifier. When it is ee (homozygous recessive), it changes a black Lab into a yellow Lab with a black nose and black around the eyes. It also changes a chocolate (same as liver in other breeds) Lab into a yellow Lab with brown nose and brown around the eyes. It is called a coat modifier because it changes coat color only, and not the skin. A chocolate Lab that has been turned yellow by this gene is also known as a Dudley.

I haven't looked into the whole long haired thing a lot. In the US, we typically don't see them, because they were pretty much culled out if they were produced. From what I understand, short hairs can produce long hairs and this is pretty typical in countries where long haired Weims are accepted. So longer hair alone doesn't necessarialy rule anything out.

RK · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:19 am Post subject:

so a "silver" weim must carry only the recessive (color) gene in order to look like a proper weim, right?

meaning, the only explanation for barb's pup is that that one pup had a different sire, right?

also, (now i am way into this), in regard to "blue" weims. how is a blue weim produced? does it have to be a cross in order to get a blue weim? and what about a silver x blue? does that produce silver or blue? how are litters with both produced?

Shocked

you are a fount of knowledge, grayghost! i bow down to you!

GrayGhost · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:38 am Post subject:

A Weimaraner's genetic makeup is very limited color wise. A Silver Weim is bbdd. This is why this color is so unusual.

If it was Bbdd or BBdd, it would be a blue. If it were bbDd or bbDD, it would be brown. If it were BbDD BBDD, BBDd, or BbDd, it would be black.

As you can see with these two loci, there are many possibilities. As you can see many of these possibilities can produce the same result with differing genetic codes.

But for bbdd there is only one possible result (solid Silver), and for solid Silver, there is only one genetic possibility.

So if the parents are Silver Weims, we know they have to be bbdd. And crossing two bbdd can only result in bbdd.

What I do not understand is that they said that the puppy came out with silver/blue/white (which are not GSP colors so I am pretty confused about what the puppy looks like). Blue would mean there is a B (black) in the puppy's genetic makeup. Black is dominant and would show up in one of the parents if they carried it (which in combination with dilution is blue).

GrayGhost · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:

Blues are easy. They are just Bbdd or BBdd.

When you cross BBdd (homozygous blue) with bbdd (silver), your litter will be 100% heterozygous blue (Bbdd). When you cross a Bbdd (heterozygous blue) with bbdd (silver), your littler will be 50% blue, 50% silver, and all of the puppies that are blue will be heterozygous blue (Bbdd).

When you cross two homozygous blues (BBdd) the offspring will be 100% homozygous blues. If you cross two heterozygous blues (Bbdd), the offspring will be 50% heterozygous blue (Bbdd), 25% homozygous blue (BBdd), and 25% silver (bbdd).

It is interesting to note that silver offspring produced from a blue cross cannot produce blue offspring unless crossed back with another blue. They will once again be genetically pure for silver. This is why blues can’t just pop up when two silvers are bred. You have to intentionally breed for them.

RK · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:13 am Post subject:

but to get a blue or a brown in the first place, would there have to be some sort of breed outcross somewhere along the line? i mean, how does a homozygous blue occur in the first place?

doesn't the WCA say there is no such thing as "brown" weims? that they had to be crossed (like with a GSP as it is the brown of a GSP)? i have never seen one although some person on the street stopped me once while i was walking schroeder and claimed that his sister had a brown weim, and i almost said that wasn't possible without there being some sort of crossbreeding.

RK · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:

maybe barb meant GSP markings but with blue/silver/white colors, because there was also a darker undercoat.

they also said that pup had longer hair so i can't possibly imagine that it had the same sire.

GrayGhost · Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: