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LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Luna still won't point... (Update) |
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But at least we know now she can swim!
We spent a beautiful day outside with some fellow NAVHDA members. They're so kind to us, trying to help us teach/coerce Luna into pointing... she just does not seem to have alot of interest in the pen raised Quail... I'm going to buy a not-cheap pass to a different set of training grounds where they meet weekly to see if I can help her... (ok help me help her), we're also going to see what we can do about getting some wild bird exposure. To be continued...
The good news of the day was that we did get to end on a high note, which is always good. Luna hadn't been swimming, wouldn't even go into the water where she couldn't touch. There is a super nice guy we've befriended (he has an awesome GSP the same age as Luna that got a NA Prize 1 (112)!) - he offered to take his GSP and Pointer over to the water to us so maybe Luna could learn something from them, and she did! We were so excited she was swimming we both bounded into the water chest deep to help coax her (and fetch the bumper she wouldn't get LOL) - Swampy Dog, Swampy Mom & Swampy dad all got baths when they got home.
I'm such a proud momma though that she made some progress! 
Last edited by LunaBrown on Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PamK
Champion Weim
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 845
Location: Texas
Fur Kids: Derek - Weim b-day 2/27/07
Ridley - weim/lab b-day 6/24/08
Gracie, Otis and Joey are the cats |
| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Congrats! There is nothing like watching a dog have fun while doing what they were breed to do. Hope you get the pointing down soon. |
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h20fwlkillr
Adult Weim
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 485
Location: Holden, Mo.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | They're so kind to us, trying to help us teach/coerce Luna into pointing... she just does not seem to have alot of interest in the pen raised Quail... I'm going to buy a not-cheap pass to a different set of training grounds where they meet weekly to see if I can help her... (ok help me help her), we're also going to see what we can do about getting some wild bird exposure. To be continued...
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How were you going about her bird exposure? Has she been allowed direct contact with any birds? How many times has she been exposed? Give us some idea of what you have done/tried and maybe we can help out. |
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LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| h20fwlkillr wrote: | | How were you going about her bird exposure? Has she been allowed direct contact with any birds? How many times has she been exposed? Give us some idea of what you have done/tried and maybe we can help out. |
Luna got a rough start in life - she fell very ill at 12 weeks and we didn't feel like she was strong enough last fall to take her out... our mistake, we should have gotten her out at least as much as we saw she could handle... Now due to our over-protectiveness last year, she's like the kid that got held back a grade! 
She has had direct contact with quail only... she just does not seem terribly interested in them. We've done quite a few walks where someone plants them in the field, she can and will find them in that type of situation, but they do not fly well and she catches them fairly easily. Yesterday, they put a quail in an old onion bag and planted it, she just kept walking RIGHT by/over it... eventually we gave up and picked the bag up, we were waving it right in front of her and she was completely indifferent towards it. We did get her to retrieve dead quail for us, she was able to find them in tall grass, up to my chest. The director of training took her for a 'walk' on the CC, he basically kept tossing a quail around to try and get her interested in it... not so much.
We have extended family with tons of land out in western MN, where we can get access to wild Pheasants. Everyone seems to recommend that wild bird exposure is the way to go, so we're going to get out there as much as we can in July (want the babies able to fly first).
If I get the training pass, I would have the opportunity to work with her weekly guaranteed. I would also have access to a bird launcher, which is another recommendation I've gotten.
I'm a little discouraged, but I know she has it in there... you can see the change in her attitude in the fleeting moments when she gets it.... |
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dhondt
Housebroken
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| LunaBrown wrote: | | She has had direct contact with quail only... she just does not seem terribly interested in them. We've done quite a few walks where someone plants them in the field, she can and will find them in that type of situation, but they do not fly well and she catches them fairly easily. |
If she is catching them then she sounds like she is interested in them. Take your time it sounds like you may be trying to rush things. I wouldn't worry about her catching them at this point if your trying to build bird drive. In other words I wouldn't use any traps at this point.
| LunaBrown wrote: | | Yesterday, they put a quail in an old onion bag and planted it, she just kept walking RIGHT by/over it... |
That is interesting, I never heard of this technique. Is there any old scent of onions left in the bag? What is the purpose of this? Just curious...
Here is two suggestions for introduction.
1. Pluck a few flight feathers from the bird. Every other feather on each side and a different number on each side. Not a lot but enough to hinder its full flight. This might take some practice to get a feel for the right number of feathers to pull. I say a different number from each side to throw the birds balance off sometimes causing them to spiral. Then just get the dog all excited about the bird as much as you can. Show it to them then toss it out and let them chase it down. This requires that they show a little interest before releasing the bird to get them excited about the chase. Works best when they are well rested and bursting with energy. The trick is taking it away at the right time while they are still excited about playing with it. Then call it quits that day. Try this a few times.
2. Next, you got bird drive in place and you want to start establishing some point. There are several methods you can use. For puppies I like to use the bird wing on a fishing line and just whisk it away as they chase it back and forth. For older dogs and puppies you can tie a bird to the end of a rope or CC and whisk it back and forth as the dog tries to catch it whisk it away much like the bird wing. This may take a lot of patience but usually the dog will tire out and finally establish a flash point as they go to stalk the bird. Again stop when you have gotten a flash point and praise. I like to throw the bird out at that point and let them retrieve it. You have to watch them closely though they may begin to tire out and start to lose interest before you get that flash point. I'd stop before they lose complete interest and go back to step 1. |
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h20fwlkillr
Adult Weim
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 485
Location: Holden, Mo.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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dhondt gives some good advice, but be forewarned, too much wing on a string can lead to sight pointing. Too much eyes and not enough nose.
Pointing is always caused by one of 2 things.
#1 uncertainty........found a scent or sight he/she is unsure of.
#2 learned behavior.........resorting to pointing after learning chasing wasn't resulting in birds (couldn't catch them)
The first step to pointing is building drive/desire. Best way is bumping and chasing birds. Even robins in the backyard are find. Right now catching birds is fine. Once she catches them reel her in on the CC , praise her and take the bird. Turn it into a bit of a game. Stop the sessions with her wanting more.
While wild birds are great, pheasants are not so great on young dogs.Way too intimidating.
I wouldn't use a launcher until she is at least giving chase. Launchers are great for getting a dog to point and steadying them, but don't do much for desire unless it's shoot to kill birds being popped. |
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LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys! I feel like yesterday she was having a particularly bad day. In the past she's given chase and caught the quail that have flushed. Once she gets the first one of the day up, she tends to get more excited and understand what we're doing a little better. What's even better is when she does catch them, she brings them right back to me - still alive!
What do you mean by 'young dog'? Luna is 13 months now....
There are alot of dogs her age that hunted last fall... really up here in Minnesota they were only hunting Pheasants (maybe some grouse)... I feel like maybe their 'real world' experience, coupled with a better built-in drive is what puts them ahead of her.
Re: the old onion bag - it was really old plastic, it didn't smell like anything but stinky pen quail to me, but I don't have a dogs nose, either. They didn't really go into any sort of explanation as to why they did that... but I picked the bag up and swung it around in front of Luna and she didn't care about it one bit... she may have been confused by the bag itself?
Like I said, I'm not worried... I'm not typically a patient person, but I somehow have all the patience in the world for this dog! I am going to get to the weekly training nights, I'll keep everyone posted. |
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dhondt
Housebroken
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| LunaBrown wrote: | | Re: the old onion bag - it was really old plastic, it didn't smell like anything but stinky pen quail to me, but I don't have a dogs nose, either. They didn't really go into any sort of explanation as to why they did that... but I picked the bag up and swung it around in front of Luna and she didn't care about it one bit... she may have been confused by the bag itself? |
I guess they want them to find and point the birds with out getting sight of a bird just by smell. But still if they sight the bag, I don't know.
I think H20 is saying it is not a good idea to introduce a puppy to pheasant, because pheasant have been known to challenge a puppy especially if they are smaller or same size as them. They can be down right nasty and good luck getting a dog over that one. I have never worked pheasant since we don't really have them out here, but that is what I have heard anyhow. |
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LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I can ask more about the onion bag if you really want to know 
That's what I had been told about the Pheasants as well, but she's not a little puppy anymore.... she's (nearly) a full grown dog. Size-Wise, she retrieves her Dokken Dead Fowl Pheasant without issue... The exposure we plan on getting her in the upcoming months is purely to get her in the presence of birds that will not be caught, the issue lies on the birds that aren't quite shot dead I understand? I absolutely do not want to do anything to hinder her training, but the fact of the matter is, come Fall that's what she'll be out there doing!
Poor Luna, having to be our first bird dog... I really, really appreciate the advice, she probably appreciates it more!! |
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h20fwlkillr
Adult Weim
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 485
Location: Holden, Mo.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | What do you mean by 'young dog'? Luna is 13 months now....
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I use the term loosely. Most of the time it refers to a pup, but in this case a dog that hasn't had much experience and is new to the game. Some older pups/young dogs aren't scared by pheasants, but why take the chance. They flush hard and fast, sometimes into a dogs face. Not a good thing on an unsure dog.
| Quote: | Re: the old onion bag - it was really old plastic, it didn't smell like anything but stinky pen quail to me, but I don't have a dogs nose, either. They didn't really go into any sort of explanation as to why they did that... but I picked the bag up and swung it around in front of Luna and she didn't care about it one bit... she may have been confused by the bag itself?
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I would ditch the bag. Clip the wings on a few quail, throw them out in the field at random and let her have at them.
| Quote: | | Like I said, I'm not worried... I'm not typically a patient person, but I somehow have all the patience in the world for this dog! I am going to get to the weekly training nights, I'll keep everyone posted. |
You will need lots and lots of patients. It takes time to form a good dog.
| Quote: | The exposure we plan on getting her in the upcoming months is purely to get her in the presence of birds that will not be caught, the issue lies on the birds that aren't quite shot dead I understand? I absolutely do not want to do anything to hinder her training, but the fact of the matter is, come Fall that's what she'll be out there doing!
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Right now, catching birds isn't that bad. It really helps build prey drive. Keep her on a CC and reel her in to prevent eating of birds. She'll learn quickly the birds are for you. Get the drive in place and then work on getting points and steadying. |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Mindy,
I'll send you an email when I get settled back in (have been out of town). Weims in general do not have a lot of point, they are better at after the shot work, as a generalization. Do not get discouraged. You can teach a dog to point. Read again what h20 said about the 2 reasons dogs point. #2 is the main reason dogs point and the reason planted birds can be more trouble than its worth. This is why you hear some people who have the luxury to hunt exclusively wild birds say, "I never trained this dog, he just learned by himself" THE BIRDS TEACH THE DOG. All the other things we do are basically simulating what a wild bird will do.
In general I am not really on board with the way a lot of NAVHDA people train, many NAVHDA breeds are not like Weims. I don't personally believe in "making" a dog point. If you read the last write up from Nationals, the scribe was a little scathing about the poor style he saw on broke dogs (a huge difference from what you see in the juvenile dogs). I believe it comes from "making" dogs point and pressuring the dog too much. Be cautious as far as being observant of how your dog reacts, etc. Just because it works for a DD does not mean it will work for a Weim.
More later, I'll write to you privately later this week....
Anne |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LunaBrown wrote: | | Poor Luna, having to be our first bird dog... |
We all have our learner dogs and our successive dogs are better for it! |
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versatilek9s
Champion Weim
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 720
Location: VA
Fur Kids: Maya, Sage & Macy--all weims |
| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Maya saw her first bird at 14 months old at a NAVHDA NA test. I had no clue what I was doing, and neither did she! But she pointed like she knew exactly what she was there for. She points everything now. Don't get discouraged, and enjoy that "learner dog!"
meredith |
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LunaBrown
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 2021
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Fur Kids: Luna, Weimaraner
Murphy, Kittycat
Paige, Kittycat |
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Good news, I think it's that she just does not care for pen raised quail... we tried a plain old pigeon last night and she had a much more enthusiastic response to it... we know her nose works, she walked right up to it (still no point, but I think we're going to get there...) and got excited when it flew! Anyhow, by the time we get to her NA test in August, they'll be using chukars instead of quail for the test, so I'm thinking (hoping) that's good news.
I have officially sprung for a pass to some training grounds, our NAVHDA chapter meets there weekly and I'll be joining them... what an awesome group of people they are. Apparently, Luna isn't the first non-pointing pointing dog, and also not the worst case they've seen. The director of training was telling me about his wife's brother-in-law's pair of weims and how they ran away from birds when they were Luna's age!
To be continued... |
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