Forced Fetch....Is it really necessary?

Travis

I've been doing a lot of reading about the FF and I'm not really sure I understand. Is it something that is just used as a technique to fix a "problem" the dog has, i.e. hard mouthed or won't retrieve to hand or is it an actual training regimen that every dog who is going to hunt should be put through. I don't think I'm interested in it. I love the idea of using a table with the restrictions and all to help teach but to just pinch the sh*t out of my dogs ear to get what I want doesn't sound like something my dogs would need and if they did I'm afraid I would just not hunt that dog. IMO it sounds like something to cover up bad traits in a dog, in most European countries they don't teach FF because they still breed for soft mouth and retrieval to hand. I've also noticed that most of time when I've read about it they are referring to Brittany's or GSP's but usually not weims, is this something that is not used on weims as much?

LunaBrown · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject:

Hi there,

I think I am pretty much on the same learning curve as you are! I just asked this question a couple of weeks ago and thought I would share:

http://www.weimaraneraddict.com/discussion/force-breaking-vt7277.html?highlight=force

I hope this helps shed a little light on the situation for you. We have decided to try and get around the force breaking and work with her via the other ways our fellow weimie hunters recommended! It's not quite spring here in MN, but once it warms up and dries out we're going to be getting outside and down to business - I definitely plan on keeping everyone here posted on our progress.

DanniGirl · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

As to your question, weims (generally speaking) are softer then GSPs.
As I told Luna, I tried FF but force my dog to do something she already loves? I just kept a CC on her until she learned how to retrieve to hand.
If you have a problem with hard-mouthing there are numerous techniques that can used to break a dog of this habit.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:42 am Post subject:

FF is a great thing IF a dog really needs it. Done wrong (or even right on a very soft dog) it can ruin them. I haven't many dogs that FF is a must. Most trialers FF their dogs to guarantee a retrieve to hand ALWAYS.

ldhuber · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: competition

a lot of dogs are run through ff (as stated in earlier posts) to ensure delivery to hand EVERY TIME. if you're just doing hunting on your own and no trials, there is really no need to put your dog through the long process.

On the flip side, ff lets you break down each action of the retrieve and will increase the retrieve drive of a dog, if that is what's needed. I am doing ff with my weim adn have had a few things pop up that surprised me. In comparison with my friends' labs that have been ff'd, Kaya has taken very little stimulation to get desired responses. She knows that when i reach for her ear she's to grab and not let go. she's not scared of the ff table and doesn't tuck tail during the process.

The main thing i concentrate on, since weims are emotionally softer than some of the sporting breeds, is that she has a VERY CLEAR idea of what is expected of her. If you keep the dog from getting confused during this, he or she will catch on very quickly and, just as with every other trick or command you teach, they will immediately work to please you.

The main reasons i'm opting to do ff is to increase her retrieve drive AND to help her differentiate between hunting for a live bird and searching for a downed bird.

Lee

Travis · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject:

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the table and everything that goes with it, with the exception of the ear pinch or toe hitch. I think the table is an EXTREMELY useful tool for training and when we're ready and at the point to use it I completely intend to but I just can't bring myself to pinch that ear. What's strange though, or maybe it's not, but I would definetly use a e-collar if it was necessary.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:26 am Post subject:

If I was you, I would wait and see if FF was is called for. I have FF dogs and really regret having done it. Most dogs if given the chance will retrieve to hand on command every time if conditioned to do so thru repetition. FF speeds things up a little, but not worth it IMO.

dhondt · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:29 am Post subject:

I have to agree with hs20 comments. Yet again I am noticing. Very Happy

I work with some people that are big fans of FF and I work with others that won't touch it. I teach my dogs to take, hold and drop. I'm not against FF I think it may very well be necessary for some dogs, but I think most will pick it up naturally with persistence. It's definitely not something you jump into at the start just like an eCollar is not something to just jump into at the start. Although, I do get my dogs used to training with an eCollar on and before I ever owned one I just duct taped a D size battery to her collar so she got used to it. sorry, another topic

I have never seen or heard anyone using the toe hitch method and the videos I saw using this method were very old. I'm not sure people even use this technique but maybe they do. The ear pinch is the most popular. I was lucky with my girl and got away with using the eCollar. But, this was used at the end of her training to clean up any hard mouth issues I had to deal with and she had enough bird drive that she wasn't letting go of that bird regardless. I would use nearly the lowest setting just as a reminder to her she isn't to munch the bird. Again, timing being everything. But, I caution against this unless you know what your watching for because you can scare a dog from ever picking up a bird again. At least you could very easily set yourself back a year.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject:

FF and e-collars are great tools when in the right hands and used at precisely the right way. If they aren't, negative effects in training pop up immediately and are sometimes incurable, or at least very time consuming to correct. I do use the e-collar, but not to the extent most do. I really don't believe stimulation or pain is a must to get desired results in training. It does have the potential to speed training up though. I prefer to train the old fashioned way, repetition and consistency. It may take a bit longer, but there is a much smaller chance of having major setbacks.

Travis · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:

dhondt · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:37 am Post subject:

A barrel works very well too for whoa training.