2 dogs and no experience

Travis · Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: 2 dogs and no experience

I have a 3 year old weim and a 15 month old weim. Neither have any training in the field but i am wanting to start working with them. I have a few questions though so bare with me. First, when i take the pup out just for a fun walk through the fields should i take the older boy with us or is he just gonna teach the pup bad habits? Once i do start working with them should i train separately or at the same time? And i guess the first question should have been is 3 years old too late to start working with them and really expect them to become hunters? Also, we do live in a fairly rural area and spend a lot of time in the fields and woods so the dogs are exposed but that would be about it. I'm sure as i get some answers to these I'm gonna have about 20 more questions as well but all advice is much appreciated.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:18 am Post subject:

Fun time can be together, but actual training should be one on one. Dogs can learn habits from each other, some good some bad. At 3, there are some advantages and some disadvantages. The 3 yo should be settled down and more inclined to listen and learn, but will also be more set in his ways. There will be bad or undesirable habits to break. It can be done. Really 15 months is older than I like to start at. IMO training should start at a very young age, but some trainers prefer to wait until a year or older.

anne · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject:

It's really never too late but like anything, it's easier to start with a younger dog that has a "clean slate." But don't let that stop you! An older dog can be much easier to train!

I would defintely NOT train them together. As h20 said they can pick up bad habits, but also it's too hard to keep your attention on 2. Initially as he said, it could be OK to run them together but even that I would really not do. What usually happens is that the younger one tends to rely on the older one and you end up with trailing problems. I woudl consider putting them down together when they are both at a place in their training when they might need to start working with a bracemate, and even then I would try to find another dog.

On your walks, I would take them separately, and also I would discourage them from getting behind you. Usually well bred dogs tend to naturally stay to the front, but as they start to use the wind sometimes they are tempted to go the other way. Just toot them forward. Don't get on your dog harshly, you are just encouraging a nice natural pattern. The biggest rule of thumb is to keep your mouth SHUT. Talking is going to keep them in and that is not what you want.

Travis · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject:

anne · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject:

Get your puppy out now. Somewhere on this forum I posted a link to my article in the WCA magazine about how to start puppies. You would basically do the same with your 3 year old since he doesn't have experience, and therefore is kind of like a puppy.

You should work both dogs separately. They are going to pick things up at a different rate. Do not think of this on a timeline, you need to work with them as they start progressing and showing you they understand. Some dogs have more hunt in them than others, and even those bred specifically for field have differences... some might have a stronger point, or some may be better retrievers etc. And you need to adjust your training based on what you see develop.

As for checkcord work I would not do that now. They need to first learn to overcome their environment, learn how to hunt etc. They need their exposure to birds and to have their prey drive awakened. Checkcords are used for control and until they understand what they are out there for, you shouldn't use a checkcord.

Is there someone that has some experience that can help you? It can be a bit hard to try and do this alone.

Travis · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:

I don't know of anyone right off hand, there is a NAVHDA chapter about an hour from me in Oklahoma so i was thinking about trying there. I'm actually JUST getting into bird hunting myself, used to do some deer hunting but have wanted to get into birds for awhile and now that i have 2 dogs i figured what better way for us to have some fun together. My 3 yo knows his basic commands and the pup is very quickly picking them up, he will sit and stay for his food until released and we're working on it during playtime as well but he gets a little more excited then. I read the article you posted on getting a pup started and i guess i've inadvertently done a lot of that, as i said before we spend a lot of time in the fields and woods just hiking. Are there any specific signs i should be watching for when i take them out into the field?

anne · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject:

Well if you are hiking with them, stay off the trails. You don't want them learning to run trails. Have you run them anywhere were there are birds?

anne · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject:

And going to NAVHDA would be a good idea. Smile

Travis · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

Yes we've run in some open fields that had some quail in them, with the 3yo that is, i don't think the pup has seen a quail yet. We have dove in our neighborhood and Floyd (the oldest boy) goes nuts trying to get to them, so i know he is interested if nothing else. That's a good point about staying off the trails, that hadn't even crossed my mind. Will any kind of bird exposure help or should i be trying to find quail for them to be around? And as far as right now goes, when i'm in the field with them, just walk and encourage them and nothing else right? Even with the older boy or should i be pushing him a little more?

DanniGirl · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:

Travis · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject:

DanniGirl · Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:33 am Post subject:

No. You need an out of state license only if you plan to hunt wild birds, etc...
In my NAVHDA chapter we never go out hunting. The birds we use for training are supplied by the chapter members. (Pigeons, Quail, Chuckers, Pheasants, ducks, etc...) Every chapter's different but you shouldn't have to purchase an out of state license.
BTW, NAVHDA is a great starting place and everyone's always willing to help. A little tip someone told me; the members who talk a great deal tend to have the disobedient dogs. It's the members who are quiet that tend to be more knowledgeable. LOL! Rolling Eyes

-Don't know if there's any truth to that, but it's food for thought. Wink

Travis · Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:07 am Post subject:

I didn't know if shooting training birds was the same as "hunting" or not. Oh and as for the tid bit of info Danni, i tend to find that true in everyday life, the ones that run their mouths constantly generally have no clue as to what they're talking about. But it's usually entertaining to listen to. Laughing

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:20 am Post subject:

Some states you need a dog training permit to shoot birds that are identified as gamebirds by the state regardless of whether or not they are wild. Here in Mo. you must also have all gunners listed on the permit.

If you have wild quail around, get both those dogs into them as often as possible. A wild covey of birds will teach a dog more in a few hours than a trainer and pen raised birds will in a few weeks. I am lucky enough to have 3-4 coveys on my training grounds and I get mine and clients dogs on them as often as possible. I can get dogs steady to flush much quicker on wild birds than I can on launchers.

I agree w/ Anne to a point on the CC. At first you should be running the dog off lead, but you should also be doing yard work with the CC to teach the dog to give to the lead. It also gives you control and the ability to make instant corrections.

DanniGirl · Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: