Mixed Messages on Training

Ellinorianne · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Mixed Messages on Training

A couple of issues here as I research.

Some say tug of war is good, some say it't not. Huh?

Biting, I've been doing the recommendations of yelping with Sophie and ignorning her and she bites the back of my legs! It hurts! My husband I found out, is knocking her down or batting her, lightly, but still, I'm wondering if this is egging her on to bite more or harder with me?

I also saw someone recommend scruffing the puppy when they bite and others say, don't do it under an circumstance. My husband also grabs her by the scruff, gently. She's much better with him and does not bite him.

So if these are wrong, what is my alternative?

I've been having her out more when I'm home and she loves it, but she's jumping etc.

She knows how to sit though and she understands "upstairs", I want to do a little movie of her bounding up the stairs, it's adorable.

I love spending time with her but the biting really gets me, especially since she's biting HARDER and biting face, neck, etc. It worries me and I find she gets even more aggressive when I try to ignore.

Beth · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:30 am Post subject:

I'm old school, do what works! Daisy would not listen to "no bite" or "Ouch" without a swat, now (after a few weeks) she understands "no bite" and will stop immediately, sometimes with a look!
Also, I think tug of war is good when it is clear that it is a game and an appropriate toy. You should incorporate "drop it" into your training so she can tell the difference when you take something away from her.
Personally, I do what comes instinctively with Daisy, I'm the pack leader here and she must obey me. If something I try doesn't work, I learn from it, and if something I try does work and it's not hurting the dog, then why fix what isn't broken.

peppernaei · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:52 am Post subject:

i know sometimes it seems like a smack is all that is going to get through to them but as a rule i don't. i know its dependent on the dog's personality but sometimes a swat can bring out defensive issues where they begin to snap back. if that situation arises it worries me what they will do if a stranger or child come at them to fast and they think its a swat. that said i think sometimes you have to go outside the norm and do what works. just be aware of her response. while most people would consider me mild mannered and soft spoken i am the dominant family member with our animals by a sharp change in tone when they are bad and girly tone when they're good. your body language also tells them a lot - stand your ground.

i think tug of war is fine if you 'win' most of the time and remove the toy when you are done. if you win all the time its no fun and your dog may stop being interested. that being said performance in some disciplines can be hindered if your dog can't tell the difference between tasks. no one wants the dog playing tug of war with their bird. i would limit tug of war until the biting is under control.

as for jumping, i believe that is another time to ignore her. if she jumps up turn away without making eye contact. keep it up until she settles down and then reach down to pet her. if she jumps up again turn away again. it can be annoying to keep turning but they soon learn that its not going to get them anywhere. if she jumps up on others while you have her on the leash you can always step on the leash and only allow her enough slack to sit or stand. if she remains sitting while you meet the person/animal praise her for it.

like with everything else when you ask for advise you'll get a lot of different perspectives. take from them what you will and do what works best for you because there is rarely one correct way.

kamfam · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:53 am Post subject:

If you go to
http://www.weimclubamerica.org/yourweim/development2.html

there's alot of good info here (and all over the site) on the stages of behavior and what to expect.

As for the tug of war the link above says NO. Just a word of caution...I don't normally play tug of war with Kam because he is much stronger than me, but for some reason a few days ago, I was wiping off his paws and started teasing him with the towel. Of course, it lead to a game of tug of war. Kam tried to get a better grip on the towel and got my hand instead!!! I seriously thought he broke my hand! Luckily, it was just bruised and sore, he didn't even break skin, just must've been his powerful jaws and the angle of my hand. So, I won't be doing that again!!!

How old is Sophie?

weimdawgs · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:07 am Post subject:

Beth,

I'm going to start asking you for advice. Sounds like Miss Daisy Mae is going to be an awesome dog...... Smile

Beth · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:18 am Post subject:

I sure hope so.... I wish I had more time to train her one on one.

wildlifecr13 · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:18 am Post subject:

Tug-o-War - we play it a lot, but the "drop" or "give" command is firmly installed, and we only play with appropriate toys - things long enough to keep my fingers safe.

Biting - i will use a gentle finger tap on the snout to reinforce the "no". nothing rough at all, just an annoying reinforcement - dogs generally get it, and I have not had problems breaking biting when it starts.

Scruff - i subscribe to this as well... I have seen mother dogs do similiar, so it obviously is something they understand. When Zoe is just being an idiot, I can grab her scruff and push down, she will lay down and hold still until I let go. Its a very dominating thing, and I only use it when I absolutely need her to listen.

Jumping - i am obviously not against tough love... i would rather enforce good discipline and be able to have them involved in my daily life more, than be a pushover, and have dogs that I cant take in public... besides, puppies bounce well. Very Happy

They jump, I turn and pull my leg up - they jump into my shin or lower knee. I DO NOT KNEE THEM. I am turning away/pulling back as I do it. They run into my leg and when they land, I am ignoring them/turned away, so it was a negative experience on all accounts. If they jump too hard, they may end up falling down as they land. They will survive.

anne · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject:

Training is an art and a science. Some people are naturally good at it and other people need to work at it. Training pricinples are rooted in behavior science and if you understand that (and for some people it's just instinctive) then the way you train, whether you use positive punishment, positive reinforcement , negative punishment, negative reinforcement or a combination. Training also means you need to know your dog and be good at reading dog body language.

Most of the time "experts" suggest positive methods because you can rarely mess up a dog with positive methods, however, inappropriate use of negatives can be harmful. And the internet is about the worst place you can get training advice to be honest with you.

wildlifecr13 · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject:

ahhh. a bit of honesty from Anne. well said. now, at the risk of giving more training advice over the internet...

i think she made the best point of all - it depends so much on your dog. what you can do with one dog, may destroy another, and what works on one dog, may not make a dent on another.

Ellinorianne · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: Ah great advice

from everyone, thanks so much.

I started with the scruff yesterday and it's worked very well. I start with no and if she doesn't listen, I grab her scruff and push her down, she's quite strong though! She really struggles but I try to be firm and gentle.

She's pretty much stopped biting me. It was a much better response than ignoring her and I just use no and if she doesn't listen, so on.

I enjoy being around her so much more now and she seems to like being around me more, funny. Like I said, new to owning a dog.

Now I'm working on other commands. She does great with sit, so now it's sit for getting fed. It's going okay.

DanniGirl · Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject:

Hi there!
Like wildlifecr13 said, what works for one dog might not work for another.
Just as an example my parents springer will cower if you look at her wrong and Danni's just the opposite. For her, NO - means - NO. I say one thing and I expect that command to be obeyed the first time I say it. I can tell when she's going to be defiant and the punishment is a swift and firm NO, followed by an immediate correction.
They're smart and they'll see how far they can push you.