Night vs Day Crate Training - Need Help

pfunksbn

We've had Callie for one week now, and we've had some ups and down with the crate training. She is a 5 month old rescue pup, who had minimal (or no) previous crate training. If I tell you what we've been doing, will someone please let me know what I should do differently?

Day 1 was really night one, because we got her in the evening. She wasn't really home until 7pm. We put her crate in our bedroom and when she went into it, she barked for a while but then settled down. We took her out twice for potty breaks but after the 2nd time she barked for a really long time and my husband ended up taking her out (mistake, I know now) and took her downstairs where he slept on the couch and she slept on her dog bed next to the couch. Night 2 was similar, only it was me that ended up on the couch.

On the 3rd day, we saw the vet and he said that he thought that Callie could probably spend all night in the crate with no potty breaks, since I usually go to bed around 11 and my husband gets up for work around 5:30. Nights 3 and 4 were probably the best nights. There was some barking, about 20-30 min, but then she was quiet most of the night. There was some barking in the wee hours, but it wasn't too prolonged. The only thing is that even though she was in our bedroom, there wasn't anything we could do to calm her. I tried shhhhh-ing and sitting or laying near her and it made no difference. So I think she's not so much lonely as just PO'ed about being in the crate.

On Thursday night, my husband went to bed early and I took Callie outside around 10:30pm and when we came in, she went right up the stairs and into our bedroom so I figured I would take the opportunity to just put her in the crate right then. She barked and barked and my husband got sick of it, so he came downstairs and slept in our spare tv room/guest room. Finally she got quiet before *I* was ready to go to bed, but then I was worried that if I went into my room, I would disturb her and she would start up again. So I slept on the couch. We were both displaced, but Callie was quiet all night. At this point, hubby and I decided to put Callie in the guest room instead. We use that room quite a bit, so it's not totally isolated. Last night was her first night in there and she barked ALL NIGHT. We each tried going downstairs to check on her, but she would not calm down. There were a couple of quiet intervals, but it pretty much was all night. My husband took her out at 5:30 to go to the bathroom and then crashed on the couch until 8am with her beside on her bed. We are exhausted today (and cranky!)

Having us in the same room or being near us doesn't seem to have any effect on the barking. In the last few days, we have been doing our best to ignore it and we are not letting her out unless she is calm (with the exception of that 1st night). So will she just eventually get used to it?

During the day, when the crate was still in our bedroom, she seemed ok walking into it, but wouldn't linger in there until I put a dog bed that she likes in there. Then she did kind of hang out in it, with the door open. In the last couple of days I have tried to lure her in there with treats and then close the door for a few minutes. We did that again today, and she took a really really long time to calm down. I sat with her on the other side of the door and tried using treats to settle her. Usually when we say "SETTLE," she will go lay down on her dog bed in the living room. She is not translating that to the crate though. I did get her to "SIT" and I gave her a treat when she sat, but she was still barking up a storm, so I didn't feel I could let her out. She would also paw at the door latches and put her jaws on the bars, trying to chew her way out. Finally there was a small gap in the barking and she was sort of half sitting and half laying and I said "good settle" and I gave her a treat and let her out. If I had left her in, I am sure she would have started again. The whole episode was maybe 40 min.

I guess where I am getting confused about crate training is that all the books says to introduce the crate in small intervals, but does that apply mainly to daytime crate training? I have read here and in books that on one hand, to only put them in a few minutes at a time and then gradually make it longer, but if you are doing that, how can you have them all night in the crate? We definitely don't want Callie wandering around or in our bed.

Also, even if you intend on only keeping the dog in the crate for 5 minutes, what if it takes them half an hour or much more to calm down enough to be let out? Then it kind of ruins the "5 minutes" thing. And when she's barking at night, should I check on her? She doesn't calm down one bit when I go to her, and in some cases it has wired her up even more. I'm not sure what to do, other than get earplugs. Callie doesn't bark much at all normally--only when she is in the crate.

Thank you for reading my novel...I would appreciate any wisdom that you all have.

PamK · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject:

Derek is my first dog. When I first got him I put him in the crate during the day but not at night. When I decided for many reasons to put him in the crate at night is was really hard because he barked for ever.

The crate stays in the living room all of the time. Its too big for me to be moving it all of the time. I put a radio on in the room his is in and leave. Some times he barked for hours but now he goes in fine. It took a couple of weeks.

He gets special treats that I only give him when he goes into the crate. That seams to help too.

hoochmamas · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject:

i feel you, my friend.. read the post hooch came home.. help!! in the general weim discussion section.. extensive discussion on crate training a new addition.. it is heartbreaking and frustrating, but you have to be consistent if it is going to work.. hooch has been home for 6 weeks now, and it is night and day with the crate now.. but we are still a work in progress, believe me!
it is confusing, because everyone says something different.. most important is to not let the pup out when she is stressed.. only after she has given in can you let her out.. if it is a potty break in the middle of the night, which some pups really need, wait for that 5 seconds of quiet.. then let her out.. keep it business.. nothing exciting, and right back in..
if she cries and you come comfort her.. she learns that you will come if she is loud enough, cries long enough, etc..
also, naked pups only in the crate so they don't hurt themselves.. no collars!
you have to be in charge of your house.. not the pup. don't tiptoe around when she is in there.. don't look at her, just go about your business.
sometimes if hooch is napping in his crate, and peeks up at me in passing i'll whisper "good boy in your bed".. and just keep on trucking.. but i really try to not make eye contact unless i am ready to take him out.. good luck.

pfunksbn · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject:

I did read the whole thread about hooch and his crate training..I'd actually read it before writing my post. We've had a couple of good nights where Callie didn't bark going in the crate in the evening, but she still freaks out when I try putting her there in the day. A 5 or 10 minute "trial" turns into an hour, because I don't usually get five seconds of quiet. She just barks straight through, whether I am in the room or not. If I say "sit," she will, but she keeps barking while sitting. Alternately, if there is a gap in the barking, it's usually when I am in another room, and when I go to where she is, she starts up again. So I am not sure what to do.

hoochmamas · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:10 am Post subject:

sometimes if hooch starts winding up in the crate being vocal, i'll just say "no".. like a low growl.. and when he is in there and being well behaved, i'll give him a random cookie..
some people believe firmly that if you are giving off nervous energy while trying to crate, the dog will get wound up as well. i know it must be so hard because you hate to hear her upset. when i know i have to crate him and leave, i'll take him for a good walk, make sure he is fed, empty bladder, and tired.. then put him in and sit in the room, but not look at him, for like 5 minutes before i leave.. and make sure my mind is calm.. tell him quietly what a good boy he is, and leave.
sounds silly, but i think it helps.. also, when i come home, i know he is going to bark to come out.. it make sense.. they see you, so they want to play. i put my stuff down, go to him, make him sit and quiet.. even for 2 seconds.. and then take him out. maybe don't go in the room until you are ready to take her out if she is quiet when she can't see you. let me know how you make out.

hoochmamas · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

is the crate covered? Hooch has his covered, but a "flap" open where he can see his surroundings and us through the top and side, not just the door part. that did wonders.. he also has blankets and a special stuffed baby only for crate time. we tried giving him special treats in there, but he won't touch them until we get home, anyway. i always feel his blankets when i come home from an errand to see if he was sleeping or upset.. they are warm from puppy sleep 90% of the time now..
do you need to crate her during the day? can you isolate her to one "safe" room instead? i personally don't have the space for that, so it was never an option.. but they are supposed to feel safe in their crate.. i laughed at that statement for the first 2 weeks, believe me.
it's probably because she is a rescue (good for you, BTW).. it may just take more time. have you tried squirting her with water when she's barking and then saying "no" or "settle"? they can't see you do it, though. they have to think it came from heaven.. easier said than done, but may be worth a try..

pfunksbn · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:04 am Post subject:

So here's another question...Callie usually starts dozing on her living room bed around 9pm. I try to stay up until around 11, when I take her out one last time for a potty break and then she goes into the crate. My husband usually has to get up for work by around 530 or so. Callie does well being crated for that amount of time. Nowadays, she goes in fine at 11, with minimal or no barking. However, she DOES start barking anywhere between 5 and 530, in expectation of my husband getting up. Yesterday and this morning, she barked at 4 am. My husband took her outside and she pottied, but he said it did not seem urgent. Knowing that she could have held it, did we do the right thing taking her out? The issue is that once she is out, she will NOT go back in. Hubby ended up sleeping on the couch from 4 to 7 this am, with Callie on her living room bed (sleeping quietly). If he had tried to put her in the crate, she would have barked for all that time, so sleeping on the couch is the only way for us all to get any sleep. We know she will sleep nicely on her little bed if someone is there in the room with her.

So anyway, my question is, if Callie barks "early," should we ignore her and let her bark until WE think she should get out (and hope that she quiets down in the process) or should we keep doing what we are doing? We know she can hold it between 11 and 530. She has never once peed in her crate, and when we take her out at 5 or 530, she is able to wait until she gets to her 'pee spot' in the yard, etc. Would your answer be different if the barking started at three am instead of four? Or even at 2 am?

thanks in advance.

pfunksbn · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:19 am Post subject:

Callie must have been reading my posts...last night she barked from 2am straight to three, when my husband 'suggested' that I go get her and take her out and then camp out on the couch.

sigh.

hoochmamas · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

hey there.. you know what.. who can say when her bladder is full besides her? sometimes Hooch whines around 2:30 and we just take him out to pee, and back in the crate. sometimes, when he gets up at 5-5:30 to pee, we, too, are guilty of not trying to get him back in the crate and just sleep an extra hour or so on the floor with him.. mostly for our comfort.
in the beginning of training, if he woke up at 2-3 AM, we would sleep on the floor with him. now he knows at that time, he still has to go back into his crate, and he does so, with a little whine, and a big kerplop.. back to sleep. it will get better. hang in there. it sounds like you are doing everything you can to maintain your household and your sanity. a little compromise shouldn't ruin everything in my eyes.. but i am by no means a pro! we are still taking turns sleeping on the couch next to the crate until he can go from 10pm to 6am consistently.. hasn't happened more than 3 days in a row.. but it will, and i think the peacefulness will be worth it. i'm sure others will disagree.. but this is what works for us. hope that helps..

NenaGunther · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject:

When we adopted Nena from the shelter, her first night we put her in the crate...she was crying, barking, whining on and on for about an hour. She finally settled in and I figured it would be better the next night.

Just as a test the next night I brought her dog bed in our bedroom and she curled up on it and slept through the night without a peep!

She was 8 months old then and she hasn't slept in the crate at night since.

Gunther who is 1.5 years old never had any crate training, he too sleeps in his dog bed through the night, but when we leave the house he goes in his crate. I started giving him treats and sitting with him in it (its a huge crate). I also give him raw marrow bones if I know we are going to be gone more than a couple hours, it gives him something to do. He cries a few minutes and once you shut the door, he stops.

Whatever you decide to do, be consistent. Smile

hoochmamas · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject:

just checking in..how's it going?

pfunksbn · Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:31 am Post subject:

To be honest, we have pretty much given up on the crate. For now, anyway. It was too stressful on everybody, especially Callie. I think her crate issues had more to do with separation anxiety or some other deep-rooted kind of anxiety than with just 'not liking it.' She is pretty much house trained at this point, so that is not of big concern. We put her favorite lounging bed up in our bedroom and she sleeps all night on that with no barking and no wandering around. I am able to sleep easy knowing she's not chewing up my bedroom all night--she is a good sleeper!

During the day is the other issue...we can't leave her home alone, as she WILL chew and counter-surf and get on the furniture. I work from home mostly, but I do work one day a week at a client site. They said I could bring Callie, but she also has car issues. It's definitely part of this anxiety stuff. She is VERY resistant to getting into the car, and once in there she drools and drools until my entire back of the car is one big ocean. I mean the very walls are just dripping and the mat under her is soaked through. I have to clean it out after every car trip. And we always go somewhere 'fun' for her in the car, like to the park or beach. She does sit quietly though, that's something. But she is clearly stressed by it, and the drool starts now before we even get in the car.

Anyway, I have found a day care situation for the days I am working outside the house. She is in puppy training class, and the class happens to be in a daycare facility. I had met the daycare owner when coming to class (she lets the trainer use the space). So I asked if they had space and they did. We did a trial on Fri, just a couple of hours. When we got there, you could tell Callie knew where we were, and she was SO excited. They said she was a little shy at 1st with the other dogs, but she jumped in and started playing with them soon after. She did great. So that is a load off my mind. I might do one full day every Wed and then maybe a half day Mon and another 1/2 day Friday (or at least a couple of hours). Then I can plan my errands and appointments around those hours and it will be a good routine for her. Plus being there will give her exercise and tire her out, etc.

So long story short, we are doing better now and we're all getting sleep. And other than car trips, we are all much less stressed out. Smile

hoochmamas · Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:52 am Post subject:

wow.. bless you for your patience and ability to work around your pup's needs. i hope it gets easier for you all. i wouldn't crate Hooch at night either if i didn't have 2 cats that need to have sole possession of my bedroom. i do need to crate him periodically during the day so i can get out and have peace of mind that he and the cats are safe, as well as my furniture and electrical wires!!

pfunksbn · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject:

An update on us....

I can actually leave the house now! We figured out how to set up an xpen in the kitchen (actually, 2 strung together) and I have been able to leave her for short intervals (like up to 2 hours). She didn't bark at all, even when I came back in. Whoohoo! I am so relieved. I can go grocery shopping again.... Smile

hoochmamas · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:11 am Post subject:

i know the feeling! that is fantastic..