New puppy coming in July, want to hunt rabbits

btk · Puppy Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Posts: 8

Hello all,
I am an expectant parent waiting for our first Weim pup to arrive next month. First, I would like to say I have been all over this forum for the last 2 days, and it is great! I have found a ton of great information here, and I feel very well prepared for the arrival of our new pup. I know they are natural hunters, and that most use them for bird hunting, but, unfortunately the bird population in our area has fallen off drastically in the last several years. (Probably has something to do with the ban on hunting and trapping red fox, they have really exploded, but that is a whole other topic.) Anyway, while we may stumble over a covey of quail once a year, I do have some areas that have plenty of rabbits. Does anyone here use there weim for rabbits? Is there anything different I should teach the dog to be a rabbit hunter vs. a bird only hunter? I plan on getting a retrieving dummy and some rabbit scent and working with that, but is there anything else I should know? I know they are definitely bigger than your average "rabbit dog" and probably wont go all the places a beagle will, but, honestly, who would have a beagle when you could have a weim? Just kidding on that last part, don't want to offend our beagle loving friends. Thank for any tips you guys can provide.
Brent

emily · Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject:

As long as your weim has a strong prey drive it probably won't be too hard to teach him to run down rabbit. I have no specific suggestions on how to train him. We have rabbits in our backyard and my weim loves to chase them off the property, but not into the woods. I don't think you'll have too hard of a time with the chase...
I know many a weim from other lists who kill rabbits on a regular basis. So you may not have too hard of a time. Seems the instinct can be present! Good luck.

anne · Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject:

Brent,
If you want your Weim to hunt birds and rabbits, I suggest you train your dogs to handle rabbits like he does birds. IOW, point and hold, not chase. Most people in the US use their Weims for upland birds only and do not want them chasing rabbits and break them of it completely.
Anne

btk · Puppy Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Posts: 8

Thanks Emily and Anne for the replies. I appreciate the info. That's a great picture! This site has been a wealth of information, and we can't wait to bring our new baby home and start sharing our experiences here.
Brent

anne · Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject:

Hi Brent,

Well we are bad. The dog pictured above runs in hunt tests and field trials where you cannot have the dog working rabbits, and we have a lot of them running around our grounds. But since she's so biddable, I just call her off of them when we're running those. In real hunting situations sometimes David is just too tempted not to shoot a rabbit for her. She does point them like she does birds. I know several others that will shoot rabbits for their dogs as long as they point them. Most Weims will chase rabbits though, just like they will chase other furry critters like cats. I don't want mine chasing rabbits or birds for that matter (don't care about cats I want them off my property!) I don't think I'd personally train a Weim on rabbits like a Beagle, but it would be interesting to see if that's what you want your dog to do, they are so versatile!

Is your pup from hunting lines?

Anne

josie · Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject:

In UK field trials rabbits and hares are shot just like birds and dogs must be able to point, flush and retrieve rabbits and hares, so maybe I can give you a perspective on this.

I agree with Anne that you should train a dog to handle rabbits and hares just like it handles birds - ie - don't let it chase them and kill them itself! It would have to point them and then I guess if you're in the US, you want to go in and flush the rabbit from in front of the dog and shoot it. Dog retrieves rabbit.

In the UK we have the dog flush game for us, so after the point, we would tell the dog to get in and flush the rabbit. As soon as the rabbit starts to run, the dog has to sit and not chase. You (or someone else) then shoots the rabbit and dog is sent for the retrieve.

I would say that IMO it is harder to get a dog steady to ground game (rabbits and hares) than it is to birds. Birds fly away when flushed and don't stick around for a very long chase. Whereas a rabbit can be very tempting for a dog to chase by comparison. It is always the hares and rabbits which test the dogs' steadiness the most in the UK. It would be much easier to "break" them of both completely, but this can't happen in the UK because you would be put out of a trial for missing game if your dog blinked (failed to point) rabbits or hares.

btk · Puppy Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Posts: 8

Thank you all for the replies. I am anxious to get our new puppy and start working with him. He does come from hunting lines, but I have never trained a hunting dog before. We just lost our 7yr old Chocolate lab to cancer, and we were extremely blessed with her. We rescued her from the pound and she was already housebroken and trained to hunt. Someone put a lot of time in with her, and we reaped the benefits. She was an okay rabbit hunter (she was trained as a water fowler) but in the field she always stayed close and flushed a lot of rabbits. She used the "let's just bust the brush until something runs out" technique. It was effective, but I would love to train our new pup to stop and point on a rabbit and then retrieve, either after I flush it or he does, I don't really have a preference there. If anyone could give me some tips to get started or recommend some good books, I would be very appreciative. I guess what I want is bird dog behavior on a rabbit, so I assume I would just substitute "rabbit" for "bird" in any reading I can find? My other question would be can the training be done with retrieving dummies and scent, or do I really need to find live game for him? I don't have any idea how to go about finding live birds, or rabbits for that matter. Thanks again guys, this place is great!
Brent

anne · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject:

I'm a pedigree geek so am just curious... which lines?

As for training for rabbits. I have never done it, but would go about it like I would bird training. I would not use bottled scent. Training a versatile hunting dog is nothing like training a lab, and definitely I would not train using dummies except for retrieving training, but not for hunting and pointing. You want to find game that will act as naturally as possible for trianing IMO.

You might want to go to the versatiledogs forum
http://forum.versatiledogs.com/
Josie and I are both over there as well, there may be people there that have trained for both and can give you advice. Actually I'm sure Josie could give advice since their dogs are used for both over there.

Anne

anne · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject:

Oops forgot to add...
The reason my dog will handle rabbits is because they are all over the place where we train and are wild. I never had to train her because she learned that if she didn't point them nothing would happen, and also she learned that I didn't like her just chasing them. IMO this is the best way to train for birds too, if you can find wild birds. Wild game will not allow the dog to get too close and even if the dog wants to chase, the game outrun the dog, and the dog will be unsuccessful iin catching and eventually the dog will become disinterested (well that might be hard for rabbits as fur drive is pretty strong in our Weims even tho selectively bred here more for feather than fur) but certainly many trained dogs will ignore tweety birds as they gain more experience which is the same concept as they learn that chasing is fruitless. So the dog will "resort" to pointing. If you shoot only when the dog points, he will learn that the process is a partnership with you. This is the best way to train IMO, except unfortunately most people cant' train on wild birds. So they do the next best thing, simulate wild behavior. The worst thing you can do IMO is train with poor flying birds that a dog can catch, and pen-raised birds are often catchable.

josie · Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:32 am Post subject:

Hi -

In terms of the flushing thing, you should probably have a think about whether you want to flush the rabbit or you want the dog to. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, I will try to summarise!

1. Pro the dog flushing: Sometimes the dog might point rabbits in heavy cover, down a ditch etc etc, and if you are doing the flushing, it could be hard to get in there and flush them and still be in a position to take a good shot. (Ie you will be immersed in bushes when you could be on the bank, watching what comes out!) The advantage of having a dog do the flushing for you is that you can stand still in a good position with your gun ready and shoot whatever emerges. Especially if you are dealing with fast moving ground game, this is in your favour.

2. Anti the dog flushing: IMO the level of control required to get a dog to flush is harder to obtain than it is to obtain that required when you flush. The best way to explain this is:

US style: dog finds game and points. (Handler to dog: "You can't have it".) Handler goes in front of dog to flush the game ("You still can't have it"), game flushes and is shot ("and you still can't have it"). Only then can the dog get it, for the retrieve.

UK style: Dog finds game and points. ("You can't have it"). Handler commands dog to "get in" ("You CAN have it"). Dog gets very very close to tempting game in the process of flushing it...and then, at the most tempting moment, must sit to the whistle ("I changed my mind, you can't have it again"!). And then for the retrieve "Ok, now you can have it".

IMO it is easier to control the dog if it just stands there throughout, and the message is consistant, than if you are trying to release the brakes and put them on again throughout the process, often at the most tempting moments. Especially with ground game, because you can run into the situation where a rabbit is standing there, frozen and exposed, and your dog is pointing it and can see it. UK-style, it would be poor sport to shoot the rabbit frozen there, so you would then have to send your dog in for the flush on it, the rabbit would then bolt, and as soon as it moves, you would then have to sit your dog, after just having given it the command to run at the rabbit. So if you are just starting out with training a versatile dog for the first time, it is probably easier for you to flush yourself.

3. Also anti the dog flushing: As you live in the US, if you run into any problems training your dog and want to seek professional advice, you are going to find it much easier to find suitable help if you are doing what most others in the US are doing and flushing yourself.

Anyway, I don't think that has helped much on the flushing issue!! I agree with Anne - only use dummies for retrieving training, not for pointing or flushing. Live game is the best for hunting training, but keep a check cord on your dog if you are not sure what his reaction is going to be, and forget about shooting anything over him for a long while until he is fully trained. (Otherwise your attention won't be totally on what he is doing and chaos rules!)