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kamfam
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2260
Location: Cleveland, OH
Fur Kids: Glacier, Samoyed
Darby, Weimaraner
Kam, Weimaraner
9/20/06 - 6/05/08 |
 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: need advice! |
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Ok, I'm having a hard time teaching Kam a few things, most importantly is he recently started playing too rough. At first, I just thought it was with my son (because he is rough) but it's pretty much with any of us. I thought his bite inhibition was great, but lately he's biting a bit harder. He's not breaking skin (yet) but still it's hurting, especially the kids, and I'm afraid of one of them loosing an eye (I sound like my mom  ). Everyone, to my knowledge, is yelling OUCH and walking away, except for my son who's 4. We're sort of at a loss...Glacier was well trained and comfortable when we started having children, and seriously, allowed the kids to do pretty much anything to her. She didn't mind a bit, or at least she acted like she didn't. so teaching little ones how to behave with a very large dog is difficult for us.
The other thing is the squirt bottle method. We've been using it to keep Kam off of Glacier, counter surfing and barking like a nut out the window. I just read on another post that the bottle will pretty much only work IF I have the bottle  ! Well, that's not going to work! I can barely keep track of my car keys, let alone a spray bottle! don't get me wrong, it is working WHEN I have it, but it is definitely not correcting the problem. It's just a temporary fix, and probably using it for several different things isn't helping.
Now, I've been reading about the ecollar. Is that an option in my situation? I HATE the negative correction, but especially with the biting, I'll do whatever. Ugh, I know this stuff is probably all over on here, but I just can't seem to find what I'm looking for  .
sorry for the length.
Thanks! |
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Rosko
Young Weim
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 187
Location: Sandy, Utah
Fur Kids: Rosko, 6 wks old... here Nov9th! (Weim)
Casey, 13yr Black Cat
Mina, 13yr Grey Cat
Lucy, 13yr Calico Cat |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well...
If you can handle all the drooling, I can tell you without any hesitation that Rosko will not touch a tree in my backyard again after the GF tossed Cayenne Pepper all over them.
His mouth must have burned for two days and he drooled faster than he could drink! I have coined the term 'Pepper Anxiety' to describe the fiasco actually.
But, boy, I tell you... He _does not_ bite any of that wood out there any more (even with the Cayenne now washed away).
You probably shouldn't do this actually. I'm being sarcastic; however, you can get some bite inhibitors at Petsmart (one is called Bitter Apple or something) that you can spray on your clothes where he bites you and he'll stop. We use Bitter Apple in the house on furniture and such we don't want him eating and the GF uses it on her feet and legs occasionally (she's his favorite chew toy... well, was... he's over it now mostly).
Just some thoughts. |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2690
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well that's the problem with spray bottles, coins in a can, or whatever other gizmos.... You have to have them on you ALL the time. Intermittent corrections are not very effective. I have never used them for this reason, plus anyway, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine, I'll admit....
Ecollar... I have strong feelings about too. They are effective and they can be used humanely, but I really think there's a lot that can go wrong with its use - or misuse to be more precise - but mostly... and here I go sounding obnoxious.... but for daily house manners, I really think for most people and most dogs they are not necessary.
And in particular for play biting too hard, I would say the ecollar is a poor choice. I don't know if you read what I wrote on the other thread about superstitious associations. Remember, a badly timed correction may make Kam feel that it's Glacier "biting" him on his neck. I have seen field trainers use a collar to correct tagging behavior and the biggest caution is that the collar doesn't start a fight between the dogs. It's so important to be able to anticipate their behavior, a look in the wrong direction can cause an incorrect association and with such negatives you could get more than you bargained for.
If the kids aren't giving appropriate correction, then I would step in. OUCH and walking away may not be enough for him to get the idea. You can be more dramatic about the whole thing. One of my pups likes to play bite your face... gently... his bite inhibition is good, but I won't allow any teeth on faces. So he is getting very stern corrections... I will grab his mouth and stare him down, IMMEDIATELY, the second he does it. Or even thinks about doing it. A scruff shake may also be appropriate. It really depends on the temperament of the dog how you correct. If you don't like to correct then redirection may also be beneficial. Or a combo of both.
Part of what you have to decide is the overall philosphy and training method that you are comfortable with and be committed to. I tend to not be able to give very hard corrections, there is always a part of me that holds back a bit, I think most women have some issues with that, so a lot of it is also having a comfort level with what you know you can do and following through every time. |
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kamfam
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2260
Location: Cleveland, OH
Fur Kids: Glacier, Samoyed
Darby, Weimaraner
Kam, Weimaraner
9/20/06 - 6/05/08 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Is the more stern correction something I can/should teach my kids to do? That whole "immediately" thing is the hard part, for me anyway. My kids are old enough to roam the house unaccompanied, so by the time I'd get there, it'd be too late. That is one instance where the spray bottle comes in handy. They can keep it near them and don't have to be fearful of using it.
He's really a good, mellow dog. He just sort of goes with the flow - there are some days where it's just immposible to spend a ton of time with him - but he deals with it. He's not destructive (besides for toys), although he has no respect for his human's space (totally my fault!). He responded very well to being ignored when we come in the house, to curb his jumping. He's not cured, by any means, but as long as there is no eye contact, he just wags and buts us with his nose until he's calm enough for a hello. And the kids were in on that training, as well. They didn't like getting mowed down when we came in the door, so they had no problem ignoring him. So I know they're capable of some types of training, but this one may be a bit tougher.
I don't have a problem with negative correction, except when it seems over the top. It's more of a personal problem, I guess, it makes me feel as though I failed with a more natural type of training therefore having to rely on a tool  . I can definitely be more assertive with him, if it'll help (hell, I have 3 kids, you should see me when I get on a roll  !!!). |
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Trene
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 2323
Location: Pennsylvania
Fur Kids: Sky (female)
Storm (male) |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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give him hell! You know.. sometimes Sky doesn't listen either. My trainer said to be FIRM, gotta go a lil' old school on them every now and then. Firm, then correction correction correction! And no treats for correcting an error, treats for getting it right the first time. |
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wildlifecr13
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 1572
Location: Ohio
Fur Kids: Zoe & Riley |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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i think anne hit the nail on the head... again.
its based on your comfort level and the dogs temperment, but more stern corrections may be what you need.
a lack of response to more neutral actions doesnt mean you failed, it just means weims have a bit of a hard head... gotta get through that. |
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anne
Wise Old Weim
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 2690
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kamfam wrote: | | Is the more stern correction something I can/should teach my kids to do? |
Would depend on the kids and what you think they can handle....
| kamfam wrote: | | That whole "immediately" thing is the hard part, for me anyway. My kids are old enough to roam the house unaccompanied, so by the time I'd get there, it'd be too late. That is one instance where the spray bottle comes in handy. They can keep it near them and don't have to be fearful of using it. |
You have a point, but you also have to remember that a spray bottle is also a negative. Just becuase we preceive it to be less of a negative than an ecollar correction (and it usually is for a dog too), that does not mean that it's not a negative. And for some dogs, esp those that hate water, it could be a bigger correction than you think. But you are right, a spray bottle is less of a dangerous tool than an ecollar.
Also you will be dependent on having the collar transmitter with you all the time, and I would defintitely NOT give that transmitter to a child. And your corrections with a collar needs to be even more precise than any other means because it is usually a bigger correction than a spray bottle. You can't hear your kid go OUCH in the other room, then run over and then shock the dog, that will be WAY too late of a correction. The best time to correct is JUST BEFORE the dog does it, or WHEN the dog does it.
| kamfam wrote: | | I don't have a problem with negative correction, except when it seems over the top. It's more of a personal problem, I guess, it makes me feel as though I failed with a more natural type of training therefore having to rely on a tool . I can definitely be more assertive with him, if it'll help (hell, I have 3 kids, you should see me when I get on a roll !!!). |
I think you may be looking at this the wrong way. You are learning each other, you learn him and he learns you.... Don't look at it as failures. Each dog and each trainer has different ways of getting to the same place. To me, correcting my dogs is just not fun, so I would rather train positively. Your dog will know if you are being assertive but not really meaning it. So some of what you need to think about is YOUR training style, what you can commit to and follow thru on. There is nothing wrong with using a tool, but you have to also think long term.... If you are inconsistent, the dog will learn only to behave with an ecollar on or the spray bottle in sight.
One thing you might want to do is kind of the opposite of clicker trianing but the same training theory. Associate a word with the spray or collar correction so that that word becomes meaningful. You'd have to overlap the training, in other words, once you think he knows it, you'd still have to have the collar or spray bottle 100% of the time to reinforce his training. And I'd suggest you get his training with this method 100% by him being reliable in different situations and places.
Either way, consistency is going to be key....
And especially with negatives, intermittent corrections are going to KILL your training. It's just the opposite of how intermittent rewards make behavior stronger.... Intermittent corrections will make the dog think that maybe next time he won't get corrected... and he will try harder to do what you are trying to extinguish. It's basic learning principle......
Again I'll suggest reading Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash and a basic book like Karen Pryor's.... Donaldson's is a little easier to digest....but once you understand learning theory, you will have more options at hand and will be able to react quicker, mixing up positives and negatives as the dyamics change thru every second of interaction with your dog. |
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