Holding the point Goto page 1, 2  Next          Weimaraner Addict Forum Index -> Hunting & Field Trials Author Message Wes Puppy Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 35 Fur Kids: Smokey...AKA "Smoke" 6-14-07 Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Holding the point My Weim is 11 months old. I have been working with him in order to hunt quail next season. I have come into a problem someone might be able to help. Smokey has a very strong prey drive, so strong he likes to kill and eat, squirrels, birds, frogs, etc. I have been using live dove in small cages that I hide. He finds them well, but doesn't hold a point, he just proceeds to to try to get the cage open to eat the birds. I have a 30 foot cord on him when I am working with him. When he finds the dove I planted, he will go in for the kill, and I will tug on the rope, and say "whoa." But when I do that, he interprets it as he is not allowed and takes his attention off the bird and looks at me or will come to me. Sometimes, when he goes in for the kill, and I try to stop him with the cord and command, he will leave that bird and go on searching for another. How do I make him resist and not eat the bird, without distracting or discouraging him from the bird? Thanks! Back to top DanniGirl Champion Weim Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 872 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Fur Kids: FM Blue Weim- "Danni" Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: He's catching birds, that's why he won't point. Think about it, why should he want to point when ha can catch birds, it is a hell of a lot more fun that way. As for the check-cord work, stop using right now. He's confused. When you pull on the rope, he doesn't know what whoa means so he thinks it's best to return to you. You're teaching him to blink birds and that is not good. Also, NEVER punish him around birds, especially at 11 months old. What you need to do is get him on wild birds ASAP. Wild birds will flush and it will teach him that he can't catch them. If you can't find wild birds, capture some feral pigeons. Plant these pigeons in a field without really dizzying them up. Then take your dog out and let him bump them. Sooner or later he'll realize he can't catch birds and resort to pointing. Last edited by DanniGirl on Tue May 06, 2008 2:35 pm; edited 3 times in total Back to top h20fwlkillr Champion Weim Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 512 Location: Holden, Mo. Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: A dog will never point a bird if it never has any flush. Launchers, lightly dizzied pigeons (don't want them out walking around) or even better yet ( as Danni pointed out ) wild birds. If not using launchers or wild birds, you will need to continue to use CC, but don't use commands. A dog only points after he/she figures out they can't catch birds. The wild birds will teach more than anything, but launchers are a close second. If the dog so much as flinches, pop the bird. Do this over and over and he'll steady up. Back to top Wes Puppy Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 35 Fur Kids: Smokey...AKA "Smoke" 6-14-07 Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: The dove I use are Mourning Dove. Couple of questions... A, how do I catch wild pigeons, B, how do I plant them and without them flying away? I tied a small string to the feet of the dove so they could fly up, but I would not lose them. Apparently the string lessened the dove's quickness to the air, which Smokey took advantage of and chomped down on a couple of them. How do you "dizzy" a pigeon? Thump him in the head What is blinking birds? Thanks! Back to top DanniGirl Champion Weim Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 872 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Fur Kids: FM Blue Weim- "Danni" Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Wes wrote: A, how do I catch wild pigeons, B, how do I plant them and without them flying away? There is a thread on pigeon traps... You hold the bird and move your arms in large circular motion, it doesn't have to be fast. Just do that a couple of times and that should be sufficient. Wes wrote: I tied a small string to the feet of the dove so they could fly up, but I would not lose them. Apparently the string lessened the dove's quickness to the air, which Smokey took advantage of and chomped down on a couple of them. If you want him to point, you're going to have to sacrifice a few birds and let them fly away, which I highly suggest. -If you aren't too keen on that, make a smaller piece of cardboard OR pull out a couple of flight feathers. Wes wrote: What is blinking birds? When a dog finds/smells a bird then turns away and ignores it. It's bad, bad, bad... Back to top h20fwlkillr Champion Weim Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 512 Location: Holden, Mo. Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Quote: The dove I use are Mourning Dove I would avoid using dove. When you start shoot to kill, they are a horrible bird to start a dog with. They shed way too many feathers. After a mouth full of feathers, some dogs will refuse birds. Doesn't seem to be as much a problem later after other birds. I highly recommend getting a launcher. Even a cheap manual one is better than nothing. It will guarantee a flush out of the dogs reach every time. Quote: Apparently the string lessened the dove's quickness to the air, which Smokey took advantage of and chomped down on a couple of them. That isn't all bad. It shows/helps build prey drive. You just don't want it happening on a regular basis. Quote: how do I catch wild pigeons Traps around buildings and mills work well, as well as overpasses. It is easier though to buy some stock and raise your own homers. Quote: how do I plant them and without them flying away? You can also turn them on their backs and quickly pump their legs. Then tuck their heads under their wing and gently place in cover. Quote: When a dog finds/smells a bird then turns away and ignores it. It's bad, bad, bad... It ain't that good!! Back to top DanniGirl Champion Weim Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 872 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Fur Kids: FM Blue Weim- "Danni" Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: h20fwlkillr wrote: Quote: When a dog finds/smells a bird then turns away and ignores it. It's bad, bad, bad... It ain't that good!! Wait what? You're confusing me H20! I saw an EP who was working birds and every bird he found he was blinking. I don't even know if you could call it working, because he wouldn't search more than 15 yards from his owner. IMO, it was bad. (The owner just bought two E-collars for his EP and his GSP...it doesn't take a scientist to figure out why his dogs are boot-lickers... ) Back to top h20fwlkillr Champion Weim Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 512 Location: Holden, Mo. Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Quote: When a dog finds/smells a bird then turns away and ignores it. It's bad, bad, bad... It ain't that good!! You didn't properly describe how bad blinking birds is. It is worse than bad, bad, bad.... It can be corrected most times, but is one of the harder problems to fix. I would rather try to turn a couch potato into a hunter than fix a blinker. Quote: I don't even know if you could call it working, because he wouldn't search more than 15 yards from his owner. IMO, it was bad. (The owner just bought two E-collars for his EP and his GSP...it doesn't take a scientist to figure out why his dogs are boot-lickers... ) That is exactly why I do not promote the use of e-collars for most people. I won't collar condition dogs until their owners have been trained on their proper use. I don't use a collar much myself. I feel that with a good relationship w/ the dog and good training, they are unnecessary. When I do use a collar, it is on Zeus. He had a very nasty ear infection as a pup and had a lot of scarring that led to hearing loss. I usually just use the tone function, so he knows to check in for commands. When my other dogs wear e-collars, it is just to keep the beeper turned upright. Back to top anne Wise Old Weim Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 2690 Location: Los Angeles, California Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Wes, Is there an experienced person in your area that might be able to help you with your training? I personally would not use dove or cages for training. The fact that your dog is coming back to you means he's confused. I would also consider perhaps just waiting to train him during quail season. I'll guess that you probably don't want to wait and he will be older, but if you cannot find help you may create more problems than it's worth if the dog is not getting the right message. As others have said, wild birds are the best "tool" you can find for training your dog. You will have a dog that will learn to point - and with great style - if you let wild birds teach the dog. The first season you go out with your dog is NOT about you and the birds in your bag anyway. Otherwise, I'd definitely train with feral pigeons as has already been suggested. Launchers also afford you control and timing with the flush. Be sure you know how to use launchers correctly though, always err on the side of launching too early rather than letting the dog get too close an then launching a bird! Another reason to use pigeons is, if for some reason, you make a training error and scare your dog, at least he won't be scared of gamebirds. Back to top anne Wise Old Weim Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 2690 Location: Los Angeles, California Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Wes wrote: A, how do I catch wild pigeons, B, how do I plant them and without them flying away? You can buy a trap or you can go to an overpass or somewhere and just catch them at night. Another way to dizzy birds is to hold the bird upside down and circle your wrist around until the neck is loose and just swing the neck around. You can tell when the bird is dizzy. Don't do this too much though because if you overdo it, he will be too dizzy to fly. If you do this on accident, give the bird some time to wake up before you work the dog on it. I usually tie a string and put a piece of cardboard on the end of the string to keep the bird from flying away. This way you can re-use the birds over and over again. You may need to pull a few flight feathers. Or if you have homers, just let them fly away, they'll go back to your coop. Carded pigeons really only work well if you are working yoru dog somewhere flat and without trees though. Back to top DanniGirl Champion Weim Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 872 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Fur Kids: FM Blue Weim- "Danni" Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: h20fwlkillr wrote: You didn't properly describe how bad blinking birds is. It is worse than bad, bad, bad.... It can be corrected most times, but is one of the harder problems to fix. I would rather try to turn a couch potato into a hunter than fix a blinker. Oh ok! LOL! Blinking is horrible! I thought you were saying "it's not that bad"... and I thought, "What?! Why is this coming from H20?!" LOL! I felt bad for that GSP, I saw her work and she had a monstrous range prior to the e-collar and the owner overdid it. It was a shame for both the EP and the GSP. Back to top dhondt Housebroken Joined: 10 Mar 2008 Posts: 85 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Wes wrote: A, how do I catch wild pigeons, B, how do I plant them and without them flying away? You put your left hand in, you put right hand in, .... you put your left hand in and you shake it all about.... There are several methods and it really is not that complicated. But shaking is usually involved whether it is in circular motion or not. I like to tuck the head under a wing flip them upside down and stretch the legs out then shake. I use this more with quail though. or... hold them by feet spin them in a circular motion then hold them upside down and watch there head. If it is limp they are probably dizzy. If it is up and alert continue shaking. These might be the easiest method because if you can tell they are out you can jsut toss them in a bush from horse back or whatever. Back to top h20fwlkillr Champion Weim Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 512 Location: Holden, Mo. Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Quote: I felt bad for that GSP, I saw her work and she had a monstrous range prior to the e-collar and the owner overdid it. It was a shame for both the EP and the GSP. Excluding range, what kind of hunter was she...quartering,bird finding, ect? From my experience, most of the blinkers I've seen were mediocre dogs at best that had too much pressure put on them in training. IMO the far ranging may have been nothing more than avoiding excessive pressure. Some people think they can turn an iffy dog into a champion with enough pressure. On the other hand, I've seen dogs with outstanding potential ruined by the same methods. Back to top DanniGirl Champion Weim Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 872 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Fur Kids: FM Blue Weim- "Danni" Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: She (GSP) was hunting and finding birds, just not cooperating. She was out hunting for herself. Back in Feb. she was only 7 months old and she had a hell of a prey drive, she chased a flushed bird and that's when she took off for the next county... Of course the owner talked her up as well... The EP was the blinker and he was ruined. (IMO, he is the iffy dog you were describing) He had no range...maybe 30 ft, he sight pointed a stick and kept checking back with his owner. Back to top h20fwlkillr Champion Weim Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 512 Location: Holden, Mo. Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Quote: She (GSP) was hunting and finding birds, just not cooperating. She was out hunting for herself. Back in Feb. she was only 7 months old and she had a hell of a prey drive, she chased a flushed bird and that's when she took off for the next county... At 7 months, I would have never used an e-collar. Dog was just a pup. Getting a 7 mo to cooperate is like trying to get a teenager to. IMO it sounds like he was pushing the dog too fast to conform to what an adult would be. Quote: The EP was the blinker and he was ruined. (IMO, he is the iffy dog you were describing) He had no range...maybe 30 ft, he sight pointed a stick and kept checking back with his owner. Sounds like the dog was confused. Probably was over-corrected while on birds. ( primary cause of blinking) He probably needs to stop field training, go back to yard work until the dog understands and then resume light training in the field. Then he needs to wear the e-collar in the field and every time he thinks he needs to correct the dog, hit himself with the collar. Most dogs that understand what is expected are eager to please in the field. Some trainers need to realize that over corrections and shocking the piss out of the dog are counter productive and in most instances worse than not enough corrections. They don't understand how to read a dog. There used to be an older gentleman that lived near me when I was a kid. He had a dropper ( EP ES cross) that he said was stupid. Every cripple he shot the dog would eat. He tried everything he could think of to fix the problem. He said the dog didn't have the capacity to learn. E-collar wouldn't cure the problem no matter how many times he lit him up like a light bulb. ( you know the shock into submission route) He decided to use more drastic measures. He decided to burn his dog with birdshot every time he ate a cripple. That dog was a FAST learner. He learned exactly how far the range was on his gun in just one hunt and would lay just outside of range and look straight at him while he ate the birds. He got lucky. That dog had no side effects from his heavy handed tactics other than the increased instances of eating cripples. Looking back, I think it was his dogs way of flipping him the finger. Most dogs are not that way however and most will shut down or develop other undesirable habits as a way to cope. 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