Hiding wings and frozen pheasants.

GrayWeim

I have been taking Bella who is 15 weeks out in the fields and i have been hidings some wings/birds around when we are walking. I place them so she doesn't see me when we are walking into the wind, I think circle her back around after 5 or so minutes of walking. She finds the wing/bird every time. She takes off running but i just sit and call her, she will bring it to me after a short period of time. i was wondering if i should be doing this or is this not? Any advice would be great. I also try to find real birds every day that we go out. she does not point at the dead birds. So i wanted her to see that she can not charge the bird. Any advice i would really appreciate thanks!

I have noticed that she now walks the fields smelling the air and tracking a lot more. Its pretty neat watching her!

DanniGirl

GrayWeim · Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject:

I did purchase the book. I go over it all the time and make sure that i am still doing things right. I kinda follow the "average" dog outline in the back of it. I dont try to call her off when she starts to chase. I really like to see how fast she can run!! she is sooo fast already i cant believe it! So do you think i should still place wings and frozen birds out there? And if i call her when she has the frozen bird and she doesnt come, should i just sit and wait and say nothing and let her chew on it or should i get it from her, praise her and then give it back for a little bit?

Last weekend was the first time she was introduced to a pheasant. It was a dead one, at first she didnt want anything to do with it. We took the breasts out and i threw it out in the yard, she sniffed it then it was like that, she loved it. She brought it back to me about 5 times. It was soo cool watching her with a bird in her mouth!!!!
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anne · Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject:

Lose the dead birds and wings, unless you want to teach tracking. If you want a bird dog, get live birds. Wild birds are best, but pigeons are a close second.

suejan2349 · Puppy Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 1 Location: midlands

Hi, it is a really difficult subject to give advice on.
It is fantastic if you have access to a shoot or live birds or pheasent pens, however alot of us don't. Many people use dead birds such as road kill, pidgeons etc in order that the dog gets used to the smell and feel of the birds.
Many dogs do not at first like feathers in their mouths, especially pigeons as they are fluffy and can fall out. Thjis can encourage dogs to spit, which should be avoided. A tip when training on pigeon is to put a ladies tight over the top as this prevents feathers falling out and encourages a hold.
Don't be too keen to put pressure onto your puppy yet. Yes it is fantastic to watch them on game, but the first rule of any training and competitive field trial is the stop whistle. Make sure at some point each day that you devote some time to getting your puppy to stop on the whistle. Vary the distance and don't always call her back to you so she doesn't associate stop = return.
A good trainer will advocate the circle method.
Sit your puppy down and use whatever method you have been working on, either toy or food to get her attention. You then slowly walk around her. Everytime she takes her eye off you you stop and don't move until she looks at you again. Carry on until you have done a full circle and end with praise. This is teaching the puppy to watch out for you and your commands above all else. The record I know of a circle is just under 2 hours. They soon learn that it is more boring to ignore you and sit there for along time, than to give you their full attention and move on to other things more quickly. This again is useful with the stop whistle, and eventually re-directs.
As for tracking.
You will not be teaching your dog to track by using dead game. In tracking, any object whether a human, bird or object has to hit the floor and be in contact with the floor for a distance. the dog then follows the scent of that object. If you are just placing objects in a hedgrow you are not tracking the object, ie the dead bird. However you may be inadverdently teaching your dog to track yourself, ie she will be following your footsteps/scent to the dead bird. If you have to do this, get a second person to set the birds out, or try to do it from a bycicle or by throwing it , so that she has to actively work the area rather than tracking your steps.
Remember at this age she is still very young, and control is more important than letting her run on. When she gets older and stronger, it would be tempting for her to run through bird lines or guns, so please be aware of this.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:27 am Post subject:

anne · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject:

Again I agree with h20, but I believe that suejan must be from the UK based on the profile where things are done differently. For example I very much disagree with the control issue. My main focus on getting puppies going is to increase their drive while not producing bad habits, I don't need or want control per se at a young age. But in some countries the dog is shorter running and handled more under control. I prefer a dog that will work independently.

GW your pup is only 15 weeks old, she shouldn't be drilled. Get her out there to experience various fields, she will learn to cover terrain, gain confidence. It's not important now whether she points or not. Get her on some live wild birds. If you can't go trap some pigeons and put them out there for her to find, and let her chase them. Once she realizes that she cannot catch birds, the point will come. Then shoot the birds she points.

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject:

I'm not trying to sound harsh, but it doesn't matter where you are from USA, UK, China, Mars.......it takes LIVE birds to train a dog. There are many things that can be substituted, different training methods, ect , but live birds are a must.

Somehow I missed the pup was only 15 weeks. What Anne says is right on the money.

GrayWeim · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject:

The main thing I am working on is her obedience and getting her exposed to every type of terrain. I don't put any pressure on her in the field. I think i have found a few people that raise some quail. I seen in Joan baileys book that you can make a quail box. can anyone tell me more information on that? I have some fields that i would be able to set up in. She has been doing great, I just need to keep working with her obedience.
In Joan's book "How to help teach a gun dog to train themselves" she says you should try to stay away from pigeons. But i guess if i cant get some quail i will settle for the pigeons. The bird i was using in one that we shot, it is not road kill. I breasted it and left everything else, i mainly wanted her to get the scent of it. I will get rid of it now.

She has amazing balance already, when we go through the woods she walks across every fallen tree. I have to watch her cause she is not afraid of heights either! I was walking by a fallen tree today that was shoulder height and sure enough there is bella working on her balance!

Another question,
I am just wondering about a shock collar? Of course not for a long time from now!! I just wanted to know if people use these on the wiems when they are older in the field? Again i am not planning on using one for a long long time, if ever. I was just curious.

Thanks for all the great info.

anne · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject:

GW,
Where do you live?
You can make or buy a johnny house for those quail.
Yes I use a shock collar and it's a very very rare person who can train their dog to be a functional gun dog without one. If you don't know how to use one, you should work with a trainer

GrayWeim · Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:

I am from Fort Dodge, Iowa. I am not aware of many trainers around the area. I am going to look further south around the des monies area. I figured it was rare for a person to be able not to use one. I am going to try to find some information on a box for the quail. If anyone has any good web sites i would appreciate it. thanks!

WeiMe · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:08 am Post subject:

I am not as well versed as H20 or Anne but I do know that putting dead birds out for a dog can teach them to run with there nose to the ground and can cause problems with the dog bumping birds. Also one of the reason a dog learns to point birds is that they learn they can't catch them. They won't learn that if the bird doesn't fly. Even if you don't have wild birds to train on you can always get pigeons and use a bird launcher (don't use on too young a pup because they can scare them).

h20fwlkillr · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:54 am Post subject:

Here is a link to a page with several links to johnny house plans and pigeons lofts. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3030/recall.htm

Quail are best, but very expensive in the long run. Quail recall well and can be used over and over, but are not the prolific breeders that pigeons are. Pen raised quail tend to not fly as well as pigeons. Chukars will also work and recall well. Try to stay away from pheasants until the pup is well started. They are hard for even veteran dogs and they are a pain to keep.

If you use dead birds, it is very important to use whole birds. No breasted or badly shot up birds. Young dogs can develop hard mouth or become bird eaters when they get a taste of the insides. Frozen quail or pigeons work well for retrieval training.

An e-collar is a great tool when used properly. In the hands of someone that doesn't use it properly, it is the worst. Make sure you fully understand the proper use before getting one. As Anne suggested, have a trainer show you and help collar condition your dog.

At 15 weeks old, all I would worry about is getting the pup out and exploring. Lightly working on obedience. Having fun and bonding. The only tools you really need for awhile are birds and a high quality check cord. LCS Supply has some good ones at affordable prices. Get a 20-30 footer.

GrayWeim · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:30 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the great information. I have been doing some research on some trainers around the area. I have found one that has had some experience with wiems. I am getting more information about him and the program. I think i have even found a person who sells quail in my town, if not i have seen a ad in the paper, but they are really expensive. I may end up using pigeons. I know of a breeder that will let me get some any time. I need to get a check cord yet, but i will be doing that asap.

I have read a little about using the check cord but i am not complelty sure on it, do you mainly use this when the dog is retrieving?

Thanks again, i really appreciate all the responses.